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What's The Best Hot Tub "Search Results" |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice |
on: Jul 20th, 2004, 9:04pm |
| Started by ltank | Post by HotTubMan |
Ok, the plumbing travels around the tub in the plumbing, what is different with the D-1 system is the ozonated water is forced down (from the top end of the tub) to chamber (about 1.5' long) and the discharge is actually at the top of the chamber. The ozone bubbles naturally want to float up, but the pressure in the chamber is forcing these bubbles downward. This is how the 30 seconds suspended in the plumbing is acheived.
Please dont take my word for it. Ask your local dealer to remove the front left panel if they do not have the Ultra-Pure display in their store. Better yet contact Underwriters Laboratories. I have sold 4 makes of tubs in my years as a hot tub dealer. This is the only ozone system (out of a dozen or more I have seen or used)that does not overwhelm you with ozone when you remove the cover. There are some systems that are better than others. Sundance, Marquis, arctic's Peak Ozone to name a few that discharge less ozone into the tub. That said D-1's Ultra-Pure is the only system, to my knowledge, that is Ul approved operate while the jets are on high speed.
Wow, I can't beleive all the feathers I have ruffled!
To those who have objected: I am a dealer, I am not with Dimension 1 marketing. I will not benefit from any sales resulting from these potential buyers. I spent a lot of time and energy researching this brand. Dimension 1 has more patents than any other manufacturer, they develope the technology and others follow. |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: coleman vs sundance |
on: Jul 17th, 2004, 2:00pm |
| Started by mijoda52 | Post by HotTubMan |
| It is quite amusing seeingthese comments on the recall(s). Maax never did "manufacture" a heater. If there is ever a recall from a component manufacturer, it likely affects multiple manufacturers. I can name a dozen manufacturers that use WaterWay power storm jets. Since there introduction to the market in 2000-2001 there have been five revisions. For me to say the Beachcomber or arctic or Hydro-Pool had a jet recall would be asinine. Sounds like a jealous competitor bashing! |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / My countdown has begun |
on: Jul 13th, 2004, 6:13pm |
| Started by DalePowell | Post by DalePowell |
I just put a deposit down on a Beachcomber 578 HT.  It was a difficult decision. My budget was 10K or less CDN including taxes, delivery, installation, GFCI, etc. Thats about $7250 US.
I checked out many excellent tubs recommended on this forum (HotSprings, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Dimension 1) and several more that I just didn't like for various reasons (arctic, Coast, Hydropool, Pacific). There are no Master, Marquis, Dynasty, or Coleman dealers in my area. My budget ruled out many excellent tubs in the 10 - 13K range.
Generally the sales people for the premium spas were professional and respectful of their competition. This made it more difficult (I would have ruled out anyone sounding like a used car salesperson).
After three wet tests I just couldn't find anything important I didn't like about the 578.
Now my countdown has begun (6 - 8 weeks).
I sincerely appreciate all of the information, advice, and debates on this forum. It really helped me in my pursuit.
Thanks,
Dale |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 9th, 2004, 1:59am |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by Steve |
Hi all,
Things are going really well. Looks like you haven't missed a beat Zz and you're wise beyond your years!
I think I've said all I can doodoo on this topic and people are tired of hearing from me on it!
Steve
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| 5 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 8th, 2004, 8:21pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by Jordy |
| Before you decide to purchase a Spa, wait. Judging by your username, you are in Calgary. If you are then check out the Jacuzzi showroom, which will be open in August. Wet testing is King. |
| 6 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 8th, 2004, 11:03am |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by doodoo |
on Jul 7th, 2004, 4:03pm, stuart wrote:
I might have created a monster though because now the inspector is acting like he needs to keep an eye on me or I will try to do something stupid!
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Ahhh yes, the proverbial let's laugh about something and get the police ( I mean building inspector) involved
Just for good measure and fun Stuart, put together some plumbing outside over the wall. When they both look at that and ask why, tell them that since you can't get your removable panels they left you with no choice but to put the plumbing outside in case it require maintanance. LOL! On second thought, better not do that! |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 7th, 2004, 4:03pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by stuart |
Hey zz!
Some great posts here but next time don't hold back so much! Tell us how you really feel!
Just thought I would share something. I had my basement refinishing contractor and the inspector both out looking at my project recently and asked them if it would be OK if we just put some sheet foam and panel up leaving the walls with a dead air space and made the panels removable so we could repair plumbing if needed. When the contractor stopped laughing, he said that was the craziest idea he has ever heard and that he wanted no part of it. The inspector told me if I was serious he would not sign off on my permit! I told them I was just kidding and wanted to relate my industry to theirs.
The inspector has a Coleman spa and asked me after thinking about it if there was a way he could foam his spa after the fact.
I know the arguments for both sides here and am not trying to take sides but I thought it was interesting how the conversation turned out from a different perspective outside of the industry. I might have created a monster though because now the inspector is acting like he needs to keep an eye on me or I will try to do something stupid!
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 6th, 2004, 9:36am |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ebirrane |
And specifically in really, really cold weather.
I could see someone (not me) going thermopane because they are afraid of leaks, and would rather have 5 easy service calls to fix a leaky thermopane tub than 1 expensive service call to fix a full-foamed tub (assuming it's one of those expensive foam repairs and both tubs are out of warranty).
But I'm kind of blown away at the inference that thermo-pane designs are, by nature, *significantly* (if at all) better than a full-foamed tub in severely cold weather (including, but not limited to, power outages).
That just doesn't ring true to me, but I never owned a thermopane spa before.
-Ed |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 6th, 2004, 1:09am |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ZzTop |
TalkCalgary.com have a look at another Hot Tub Form
www.poolsearch.org/forum/read.php?f=8&i=14101&t=13780
Here is just one quote from this thread:
"Author: todd (63.227.141.---)
Date: 06-23-04 16:30
Stosh,
Just so you know I sold arctic in the past, and what we did on the floor was set up and fill a spa waited for it to heat to temp, then we shut it off and unplugged the heater we then turned it back on and we would let the pumps run until we got the temp to 107 degrees. so when a customer came into the store we showed them the temp reading on the panel then we removed one of the compartment doors to show the customer that the heater was not plugged in. This is one of the many questionable practices we were taught to do in order to sell the arctic spas. We have gotten reports that the reason arctic lights are leaking (in a lot of spas in the field)is because one of the arctic owners owns a plastic co. and he is using plastic that is being eaten by the Baqua spa product. We have also learned that they have now decided to make their own jets and they are made half as good as waterway jet. They have changed the second pump to one speed and painted it gold to look like a different make (while all other companies are attempting to go with all two speed pumps). Check valves are also becoming a problem as well in the arctic spa. Other information is coming in on a regular basis so feel free to e mail me with questions I will be glade to share."
You might want to do a Search "arctic Spa" very enlightening
Artic Sales pitch leaves a lot to be desired. Beware!
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 5th, 2004, 1:11pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by doodoo |
Like ZZ this is a repost.
*********
Taking a big risk adding to this debate . But having recently shopped around for and purchased a Spa I wanted to share what we were told or not during our visits to the many dealers in the Ottawa region. In other words the buyer's perspective.
The biggest difference was in approach and both were presented as benefits. The thermopane dealers told us of the benefits of their products because of the ease in fixing leaks as in should there be a leak it will never be a problem to fix. The full foam dealers presented this issue from a warranty perspective as in should there ever be a leak we will be there for you.
In hindsight, we felt more comfortable with the full foam products because they were presenting a benefit of non worry whereas the thermopane dealers caused us to step back a bit as this was presented as a consequence. Now this could be the approach in our area here and very different to others. This is not based on facts or percentages in leaks or anything else but it is the perception that we were left with and it was very much a consistent approach between the two manufacturing styles.
Interestingly, not one dealer showed us a pipe filled with water. All had at least one tub with open panels to show the systems, which is where we could see pipe movement (vibration) in thermopane products. Again perception is what I am speaking about here about product reliability.
I don't profess to put one manufacturing style over another, but the majority of this debate (contest) seems to be between dealers, service tech's, etc.... on this and other boards rather than joe consumer. Seems to me that the real issue revolves around managing consumer expectations. The dealer we went with also made it very clear to us that like a car or a house, you need to care for your spa and yes you may in the distant future have to replace parts or fix things like leaks. But, he said, we will be there for you. That for us was the magic phrase that got us to buy from him and not from his full foam competitor (selling another reputable brand) accross the road (literally). Oh yeah, it was also the great experience in the wet test and a million other things.....
*********
The thermopane dealer had my kids jump on their cover to show that it was strong. And to a certain degree we perceived that he did impart this feeling that Thermopane tubs were better than full foam as he differentiated his product from competitors. Clearly I did not agree then nor do I today.
As I said in a previous post, this debate seems to be more centered between dealers rather than consumers. The only debate or concern that a consumer seems to have is the selling tacticts. And from my perspective, the full foam sales seem to be more credible because it is not approached as a negative but rather a waranty benefit.
At least that was our experience when we were shopping around. Naturally others may have a completely different sales experience during their shoppong of a Spa. |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 5th, 2004, 12:37pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ebirrane |
Well that's the problem! You are talking to dealers! At least on message boards all you have to contend with is people wildly trying to justify their own purchases.
The insulation thing is a religious war a-la PC and Macintosh. There are strong reasons on both sides, and both sides will try and scare the heck out of you. You will find tons of opinions and facts on it on this board and others. The benefits and compromises are no secret and any individual dealer will stress their benefits and their competitor's compromises. Research and then pick the style whose benefits are most important to you.
As for Beachcomber, my guess is that they are more concerned about "service techs" like the one your friend got than one from a beachcomber dealer. There's a spa tech on here who posted that either one takes 1/2 hour to fix.
I would specifically take your frost concerns to this board and to any full foamed dealer. I would imagine that venting in the thermopane to allow the heater/pumps to not overheat along with seams that allow access to the heater and pumps would mean that during any kind of significant power outage that would affect a foam spa would also bode poorly for a thermopane spa. Artic spas have vents on all 4 corners specifically to bring in cool air to cool their electronics I thought. Those pumps need airflow and that air comes from outside.
I would also have thought that a severe power outage (10-20 hours) would more seriously affect a thermo-pane spa which has a lower R value than a foamed spa?? Once the air gets cold in a thermopane spa you've got freezing air above and below the shell.
I'm just guessing here, but I wouldn't take the arctic salesguy's word at face value until you let people here or at other dealers defend against those claims.
Any anyone can rough up a spa... I've heard of dealers doing worse.
-Ed
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 5th, 2004, 11:57am |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by JcDenton |
Hi TalkCalgary
This is my first post. I am not a dealer nor do I have any vested interest in any particular brand. I have been coming here to this forum and reading and learning. I have also spent much time reviewing all the posts to this forum, page by page, backwards to the year 2000.
Like you, I had determined through elimination, research and wet testing, that we had narrowed down our two choices to either the Beachcomber 750 or the arctic Summit Signature. (We had determined that both tubs were of high quality and similar price point.)
We live in Winnipeg and climate was a critical factor in our choice. I have refrained from posting as the arctic vs. Beachcomber debate has been hotly contested and there really isn't much else that can be said.
In our experience, the arctic dealer did not use negative selling tactics in any manner. They were extremely flexible with all wet tests - even filling up a different tub quickly on our request to try out. In comparison, the Beachcomber was also quite respectable however as he felt we were leaning towards arctic he began to warn us of all the potential problems were might experience. I did not like that.
To sum up, we have purchased the arctic tub but have yet to take delivery. It just felt better. Interestingly, we found the Summit to be quiter than the 750 (wife and I could talk) as well (although this was most likely an isolated incident) after the wet test (750) my wife and I felt a little light headed and dizzy ( 15 minutes in water only).
Either way, we went with our gut. Whether the thermopanes are superior or inferior we will soon find out. If anyone asks, we would recommend both arctic and Beachcomber.
I'm not sure if this helps, but good luck and Happy Canada Day.
Rock |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 5th, 2004, 11:36am |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by TALKCalgary.com |
To answer the questions from John B and Ed. It was the arctic guys who stated that full foam insulation was a "bad thing". To back up this point, they showed me a selection of full foam tubs they had traded in from competitors that were a total mess underneath. They also made a very convincing argument for keeping the water pumps protected from cold weather by enclosing them under the tub shell. To me, as a first time buyer, the point they made about Beachcomber pumps being prone to frost damage in the event of a power outage was a valid one.
As to my friend. I think Ed is right, she may have been taken for a ride. She inherited her tub when she moved in to her new home and had it repaired by a an independent service tech, who apparently removed just about all of the insulation before finding a damaged seal.
The foam problem when servicing, was also (inadvertently) made by Beachcomber themselves. When I asked why they only provided one light in their tubs they said that "the more equipment that goes into a tub such as fiber optic lighting etc, the greater the chance that it could be damaged in the event a service tech had to start digging around to fix a fault".
You know after three weeks of talking to dealers, I am beginning to think that owning a hot tub is just more trouble than its worth.
Steve |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 5th, 2004, 10:34am |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ebirrane |
on Jul 4th, 2004, 9:07pm, TALKCalgary.com wrote:Hi John B.
Thanks for your comments. My concerns about full foam were due in part to the following.
My neighbor had a full foam insulated hot tub in which bees had decided to nest. When the nest was removed it was discovered that the tub had a minor leek. Finding this took a tech a good half day and caused one hell of a mess in her yard, as the tech striped out foam to first find, and then repair a very minor fault. The overall cost for the repair was $700.00. The service tech who carried out the work said that if it had not been for the foam her repair bill would have been around $50.00
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Egad.
Posts from spa service techs on this board have stated that fixing a leak in a foamed tub is not appreciably worse than fixing a leak in a thermopane tub. Though most people preface it with "if they know what they are doing".
I could see a leak in a difficult place taking maybe 2x or even, possibly, 3x the time/cost. However, saying that you are going to pay 14x more doesn't ring true.
I would be concerned that your friend was taken for a ride. If there was foam "all over the place" it could be either a new person, or a person unfamiliar with foamed tubs? Was this a person from their dealer? A local plumber from the yellow pages? A younger guy?
It's entirely possible that the person just did not know what they were doing and put their education on your friend's dime.
You may want to post just that experience in a different topic and get some opinions from the spa technicians on this site.
Best of luck in your purchase!
-Ed
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 9:33pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ZzTop |
Steve, I was once a plumber.
Have you ever seen a stress crack?
That occurs when a pipe is not supported and each time the water is turned on and off the pipe is jolted.
The inevitable result is a stress crack occuring where the pipe is fixed and cannot move.
To follow your reasoning regarding injection foam, would you recommend that a fridge use less foam?
The number one selling Hot tub manufacturer in North America, Hot Springs (Watkins) build full foam tubs as do Marquis, Dimension One, Jacuzzi, Sundance, and Beachcomber.
The primary reason for the foam is to increase the R Factor and secondly to provide support to the plumbing.
It costs the Manufacturer much more to fully foam a tub not less.
We have numerous posts by spa repair people on this board, who claim that repairing a full foam tub is not hard or expensive to do, and more over they see far fewer leaks in full foam tubs.
In cold climates the higher the R value the better and relates to the energy cost, in warm climates this argument is redundant.
My concern in this matter is that as a tub ages, after the warranty has expired, (usually 5 years), the plastics tend to harden and become brittle from age and from chemicals in the water, the possibility of leaks becomes greater. Better plumbing support decreases the incidence of this problem. This is what I am alluding to when I talk about a well engineered Spa.
The bottom line is any tub can suffer a leak, of course the more jets the greater the odds of a leak and the less plumbing support the greater chances of a leak.
Without knowing all the circumstances, I feel your neighbor got taken by an unscrupulous repair person.
I see we both agree on keeping the electronics and motors cool.
A spa should last between Ten to Fifteen years and sometimes beyond... Over the life of the Spa, you are much more likely to replace, Pillows at $25.00 to $50.00 each, pump seals $200.00, Heaters $200.00+, Motor & Pumps costing between $250 - $600 each, and Electronics $500 - $800, than to repair leaks.
BTW Beachcomber offers their products two different ways. With their Protect feature, where the pumps are inside an INSULATED Box/Step, the advantage being that all four sides of the Spa are fully insulated and resulting in the best possible insulating values to the tub and much quieter operation or BUILT INTO the spa, as other manufactures do. Your choice.
As long as the body of water in the tub stays warm you will not experience freeze up, and the electronics are designed to run the pumps if the water temperature falls below 50 degrees. The better the spa is insulated the longer it would survive against freezing from a power failure.
Other important factors is the quality of the cover and the use of a spa blanket. The surface of the water is where the greatest heat loss occurs. AS IT IS THE BODY OF WATER IN THE SPA THAT RETAINS THE HEAT, which keeps the pumps from freezing. This applies to either design.
Regards, Zz
John B. |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 9:07pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by TALKCalgary.com |
Hi John B.
Thanks for your comments. My concerns about full foam were due in part to the following.
My neighbor had a full foam insulated hot tub in which bees had decided to nest. When the nest was removed it was discovered that the tub had a minor leek. Finding this took a tech a good half day and caused one hell of a mess in her yard, as the tech striped out foam to first find, and then repair a very minor fault. The overall cost for the repair was $700.00. The service tech who carried out the work said that if it had not been for the foam her repair bill would have been around $50.00
Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking tubs like the Beachcomber As a former engineer, I do see sense in keeping both motors and electronics cool. If manufactures wish to use the waste heat from a motor then perhaps they should consider water cooling. After all, the cooler a motor can be kept the longer it's life. For me, Beachcomber has some definite plus points in it's design, but injecting foam to fill a cavity? John, the only reason I can see for manufactures to do this is one of cost and speed. But hey, what do I know? After all, I am still in the process of buying my first tub
Steve
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 7:50pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ZzTop |
TalkCalgary.com what I am trying to point out is.
DO YOUR HOME WORK.
There is a lot more to know than what a salesperson will tell you, or Not tell you.
Re: Warranties, look for the exclusions, such as replacement of the neck pillows.
Beachcomber and Marquis are both full foam Spas with very good reputations.
While I believe that full foam is better, Thermopane Spas, if properly engineered, seems to perform ok as long as the plumbing is properly supported..
The Foam issue should not be your biggest deciding factor in purchasing a spa. Look for overall quality, Comfort (WET TEST), Manufactures
Reputation and After Sales Support.
A spa is not a small investment, so Quality is VERY important to your long term satisfaction in Total Cost Of Ownership, Reliability and Enjoyment.
There is a great deal of information contained on this board, all you have to do is mine for it. My Learned, fellow posters have written to great length on this and many other subjects.
Regards, ZzTop John B. |
| 24 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 7:40pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ZzTop |
Repost:
Full foam offers the highest potential insulating value. It supports the plumbing (has less leaks) and insulates it from pipe movement and vibration. It offers quieter operation. It inhibits insects and mice from living in the cavity surrounding the tub.
Note: Our houses are fully insulated, (No Air Space in the walls), . . and we don’t leave off the interior drywall so that you can get to the plumbing lines to repair leaks. If your contractor told you he was just going to put just foil in your 6" exterior walls would you let him? Think about it.
Fridges are fully Foamed to maximize their R rating. The more foam the better.
Coleman coolers are FULLY FOAMED!
A Thermos has space inside it but it is in a VACUUM. Thermopane does not use a vacuum.
It makes absolutely NO sense to not support the plumbing lines with a little or no insulation in a Thermopane design.
Having pumps, wires and electronics operating in 100 plus degrees of constant heat cannot be good for their longevity.
While both systems work, the greatest long term problem is rigid support of the plumbing especially at the jets. Each time the pumps are turned on there is a shock to the pipes which can stress the pipe where it is attached to the jet fitting. As the tub ages these problems become apparent in some designs where no or very little foam is used for support of the pipes.
Advantages of Thermopane:
If you like your mice dry roasted it is a great design. It might be good for dehydrating meat and fruit, any one for some rodent Jerky? Oh yeah I almost forgot . . .you can keep your towels warm.
Yes, you can get at and fix a leak easier. It seems that there are far fewer leaks in a full foam tub. Just ask the guys that repair them.
It costs less to manufacture a Thermopane design., Foam is expensive.
Now Martha is the jury still out?
It also should be mentioned that it is better to fully insulate all four sides of a Spa, than three, and that the greatest heat loss in a spa is at the waters surface.
So a Spa blanket and and a very well insulated Spa Cover are very big factors in fully insulating your spa and will be reflected in your total energy costs.
ps: You folks in sunny Florida might want to ignore some of this rant as us Northern folks just don't have your kind of weather.
Regards Zz |
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General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 7:35pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ZzTop |
This is a repost
The more I read I have come to believe that the thermopane system has some inherent problems.
Reading from posts of repair people they seem to point to the following problems:
1. that the plumbing is not fixed in ridged foam allowing the plumbing to move, vibrating over time and resulting in leaks.
2, The operation of the pumps and jets are much noisier owing to the lack of insulation making it more difficult to have a conversation when in operation.
3. The thermal capabilities of air are not the equal to full foam resulting in higher costs of operation especially in cold climates.
I should also point out to be fair that if you do have a leak in a full foamed tub it is more difficult to repair, however from all the posts I have read this does not seem to be a problem that happens often. This is not the case for tubs that are not full foamed.
It pays to do your home work!
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| 26 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 7:32pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ZzTop |
Repost
There has been a previous thread on this subject: go to:
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-
Arctic Cabinet
Note: the rails and the door spaces
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| 27 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 7:23pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by ZzTop |
Repost
IMHO
Arctic Spas are over priced and made of Flash and Salesmanship rather than Real Engineering.
Arctic cabinets: The cabinet and the shell butt up to one another instead of overlapping the cabinet with the shell which will allow moisture into the cabinet. If you have a look at their cabinet doors it is made up of horizontal boards which catch and absorb water. The top and bottom have rails which allows dirt and moisture to collect on the horizontal surfaces.
Most high-end manufactures stopped making a cabinet with doors that hung on the sidewalls a long time ago because of the possibility of dirt and moisture collecting on the top and bottom increasing the possibility for rot and water damage.
So the cabinet has many places for water to seep in and collect in the unsupported foam.
I also question their equipment, pumps, wiring, and control circuitry, being subjected to constant 100 plus degree temperatures which just has to reduce their life expectancy.
And there are other problems too . . .
There are much better Spas out there for the money. Have a look at Beachcomber, Marquis, Dimension 1, Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance, Coleman There is no comparison when it comes to quality and engineering!
Regards, Zz
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| 28 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 6:49pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by autoplay |
I believe Dr.Spa is trying to convey that full foam spas add some strength/protection to the plumbing and fittings. Both systems have their merits.
Also talking to a few spa techs,it seems to be a non-issue as far as repairing a leak in either system.
The best advise I can give you is this,Wet-Test as many spas as possible.....and choose a spa and a dealer that give you the comfort satisfaction you seek.
Happy 4th all....I'm off to enjoy the sites and sounds in less than 1 hour.
P.S. ... Suncoast offshore racing ROCKS!! |
| 29 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 5:40pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by Dr. Spa |
on Jul 4th, 2004, 4:51pm, TALKCalgary.com wrote: I guess then it makes sense (all things being equal) to go with a manufacture, who ensure that all their pluming is accessible and not encased in foam. After all, if it makes little difference to the insulation value why gum up the works
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Look at the plumbing that is NOT "encased" in foam while the pump turns on and off. See ALL the movement? This makes these pipes significantly MORE prone to leaking over time. I too would want this type of plumbing accessable.
There's a supoosid study by a home warranty company that determined full foam spas had less then 1/4 the plumbing leaks that non-full foamed spas had. PLEASE NOTE, at this point this study is still heresay as I have yet to be able to find an actual copy of it......... but it does make sense......... |
| 30 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 4:51pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by TALKCalgary.com |
Hi
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I appreciate, people taking the time to help a first time buyer.
I can see why you say this topic has been covered extensively. So, having done a search as suggested it would appear to me as a first time buyer, that there is very little deference when it comes to the insulation properties (and therefore the running costs) of the top tub manufactures. I guess then it makes sense (all things being equal) to go with a manufacture, who ensure that all their pluming is accessible and not encased in foam. After all, if it makes little difference to the insulation value why gum up the works
In a different vain, I also found the Beachcomber 750 to be less powerful than arctic Spas Tundra Legend, although the Beachcomber was a little quieter and the dealership was very helpful. I guess at the end of the day, as Jason pointed out it's down to which tub feels best to the buyer. |
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| 31 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 3:55pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by poolboy34 |
Negative seliing is never a good sign. I really wish salespeople would sell on the merits and benefits of THEIR product, instead of negatively selling against another product. FYI, all three manufacturers you are looking at make well insulated spas that are suitable in your climate. Your operating costs will be minimal no matter which of these tubs you choose. Go with the tub you feel most comfortable in.
Jason,
Store manager for a Caldera and Dimension One Spa Dealer |
| 32 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 3:23pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by Lori |
First, I do not live in Canada and had neither tub in my area.
May I make a suggestion? Before you start a big war about this subject, did you do a search for this topic? This has been debated to death (or at least to me).
Please, do a search, (there is a link at the top of the page) and see what you find. |
| 33 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Insulation - arctic Spas vs Beachcomber |
on: Jul 4th, 2004, 2:08pm |
| Started by TALKCalgary.com | Post by TALKCalgary.com |
arctic Spas vs Beachcomber in cold weather
Living in Alberta Canada, temperatures frequently drop to -30 during winter. So - buying a hot tup with good insulating properties is important to my wife and I. We recently looked at arctic Spars, Beachcomber and Marquis and would appreciate any feedback from users of such.
One thing that we were told by the arctic Spas people was to stay away from the type of "injected foam" insulation used by Beachcomber, as it made access to plumbing almost impossible. We were also told that Beachcomber pumps "wasted heat" and were "prone to freezing in cold weather", during minor power cuts due to the fact they were placed outside the main enclosure in a totally un insulated box. Again, any comments?
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| 34 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 14th, 2004, 6:35am |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by Tman122 |
| I also said they were a good product. But there's 10-20 good tubs on the market today that are equal but cost less. They claim superiority over them all when it is simply not true. There's others out there that are better values IMO. I have not heard there sale's pitch but there customers repeat it on these forums alot. |
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| 35 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 13th, 2004, 7:35pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by RBoehme |
on Jun 13th, 2004, 7:16pm, fedmandoo wrote:Rboehme,
Thanks for your feedback. I really don't believe that color-coding the pipes would aid a tech in troubleshooting a leak; my point was that it would make it easier for a tech to locate each pipe and repair it quicker. If that is not the case and any tech would be able to get into a spa and troubleshoot a problem quickly without a color coded system than it just maybe just a selling feature that the average consumer may be impressed with.
When I talked to a sales rep she had mentioned that feature and I did not ask the question of what benefit the color-coding offered. If I talk to a rep again I'll ask that question and see if I get an answer. I'm intrigued about this now!!
I seem to be reading allot about the arctic "selling tactics" and that they are negative. Does anyone have evidence that points out that they have "negative selling tactics" What is negative about the selling features they point out? Are peoples opinions that their sales pitch /selling points are fluff and they hold no credibility in the spa industry? Are they misleading in their sales pitch? Are they falsely advertising their product? Pointing out features of a product is what marketing and selling is all about in my opinion.Where are they crossing the line? Please give me your thoughts on this point.
Thanks, Fedman
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For a feature to be a feature doesn't it need to provide a benifit?
I think what people are trying to tell you is that to tell you something is a unique feature that provides a unique benifit, when it really is not true is kind of sleazy.
For example arctic tries to make it seem that they do not need a heater.(yet they put one in every spa)
They say that ther spa maintains its heat without the heater.(true, but so does nealy every other brand)
They color code thier plumbing to help the tech.(not true)
F.Y.I. You have to find the Leak BEFORE you know what plumbing to replace. The plumbing being colored does not help you find the leak or replace the plumbing.
Again I would like to add that I think arctic is a good product. I just think that it is overpriced. |
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| 36 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 13th, 2004, 7:16pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by fedmandoo |
Rboehme,
Thanks for your feedback. I really don't believe that color-coding the pipes would aid a tech in troubleshooting a leak; my point was that it would make it easier for a tech to locate each pipe and repair it quicker. If that is not the case and any tech would be able to get into a spa and troubleshoot a problem quickly without a color coded system than it just maybe just a selling feature that the average consumer may be impressed with.
When I talked to a sales rep she had mentioned that feature and I did not ask the question of what benefit the color-coding offered. If I talk to a rep again I'll ask that question and see if I get an answer. I'm intrigued about this now!!
I seem to be reading allot about the arctic "selling tactics" and that they are negative. Does anyone have evidence that points out that they have "negative selling tactics" What is negative about the selling features they point out? Are peoples opinions that their sales pitch /selling points are fluff and they hold no credibility in the spa industry? Are they misleading in their sales pitch? Are they falsely advertising their product? Pointing out features of a product is what marketing and selling is all about in my opinion.Where are they crossing the line? Please give me your thoughts on this point.
Thanks, Fedman
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| 37 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 13th, 2004, 6:22pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by RBoehme |
on Jun 12th, 2004, 11:03pm, fedmandoo wrote: Rboehme had mentioned the point that arctic spas ..they color code their plumbing.
Since you are a tech let me ask you this question pertaining to servicing a tub. Correct me if I have this wrong. If the plumbing is color coded wouldn't it make it easier for a tech to troublshoot a problem quicker with the aid of a color coded system? I also believe that this type of service call may be covered under warranty but when the warranty expires wouldn't a color coded system aid in making the service call quicker? which would mean that the tub could be back online quicker for the customer which would = a happy customer?? I would assume that when the warranty expires all service calls would be subject to an hourly rate for service? If there is a colored coded system in place this could aid again in a quicker turnaround time on the service call.. This would be less of a service fee for the spa company but more of a saving for the end user.. I would like to save money wouldn't you?? That's how I see it now.. Thanks for your input very helpful.. |
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As a tech I can assure you that the color of the plumbing does not affect my job in ANY way. It does NOT make it easier or harder. It just looks neater.
Color coding the plumbing does NOT make it easier to find a leak. It does NOT make it easier to fix a leak.
There is absolutely NO benifit to me the service tech.
You seem like an intelligent person. In what way do you think that a color coded plumbing system can help in troubleshooting a leak?
If you can think of anything please let me know. You should also call arctic, because there own factory reps could not answer that question.
I am not saying that arctic is a bad spa. Just that some of thier biggest sales FEATURES have NO BENIFITS. |
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| 38 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 13th, 2004, 6:28am |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by Tman122 |
[quote author=fedmandoo link=board=wtb-hottub;num=1087047341;start=0#5 date=06/12/04 at 23:03:29] Rboehme had mentioned the point that arctic spas ..they color code their plumbing.
Since you are a tech let me ask you this question pertaining to servicing a tub. Correct me if I have this wrong. If the plumbing is color coded wouldn't it make it easier for a tech to troublshoot a problem quicker with the aid of a color coded system?
I am not a tech but a plumber pipe fitter by trade. I don't see color coding aiding any one but the untrained. Upsteam of a pump is upstream of a pump and downstream is downstream. Flow is easy to figure out, especialy on a hot tub. There's so little plumbing upstream anyway. |
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| 40 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 13th, 2004, 5:07am |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by ZzTop |
Well you asked for it . . . IMHO
Arctic Spas are over priced and made of Flash and Salesmanship rather than Real Engineering.
Arctic cabinets: The cabinet and the shell butt up to one another instead of overlapping the cabinet with the shell which will allow moisture into the cabinet. If you have a look at their cabinet doors it is made up of horizontal boards which catch and absorb water. The top and bottom have rails which allows dirt and moisture to collect on the horizontal surfaces.
Most high-end manufactures stopped making a cabinet with doors that hung on the sidewalls a long time ago because of the possibility of dirt and moisture collecting on the top and bottom increasing the possibility for rot and water damage.
So the cabinet has many places for water to seep in and collect in the unsupported foam.
I also question their equipment, pumps, wiring, and control circuitry, being subjected to constant 100 plus degree temperatures which just has to reduce their life expectancy.
And there are other problems too . . . 
There are much better Spas out there for the money. Have a look at Beachcomber, Marquis, Dimension 1, Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance, Coleman There is no comparison when it comes to quality and engineering!
Regards, Zz
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| 41 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 12th, 2004, 11:03pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by fedmandoo |
Rboehme had mentioned the point that arctic spas ..they color code their plumbing.
Since you are a tech let me ask you this question pertaining to servicing a tub. Correct me if I have this wrong. If the plumbing is color coded wouldn't it make it easier for a tech to troublshoot a problem quicker with the aid of a color coded system? I also believe that this type of service call may be covered under warranty but when the warranty expires wouldn't a color coded system aid in making the service call quicker? which would mean that the tub could be back online quicker for the customer which would = a happy customer?? I would assume that when the warranty expires all service calls would be subject to an hourly rate for service? If there is a colored coded system in place this could aid again in a quicker turnaround time on the service call.. This would be less of a service fee for the spa company but more of a saving for the end user.. I would like to save money wouldn't you?? That's how I see it now.. Thanks for your input very helpful.. |
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| 43 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 12th, 2004, 1:54pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by Johnny |
I have an arctic Kodiak, Signature Series. I've had it for 3 years or so. It has been a great tub, no complaints.
The dealer has been very good, although quite frankly I haven't had any call to put him to the test. I believe he would be there if I needed any support.
My only comment is the pricing. They work on the 'High List'........ up to you to haggle him down. My experience is that 90% of the Tub stores work on this practice.
The only exception was Beechcomber. The price.........is the price.
At the end of the day, NO regrets. I would buy the same Tub tomorrow. |
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| 44 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 12th, 2004, 12:57pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by Wisoki |
| If you've wet tested the tub, you like and trust the dealer and it fits your needs, number of bodies and is comfortable for you, BUY IT, arctic is a good company that makes a good product that is built differently than others that makes it no less a good product that will be backed by the manufacturer. How that for a run on sentence. |
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| 45 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 12th, 2004, 12:57pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by RBoehme |
arctic spas are a well made product.
Although I think that they are overpriced, and they use questionable tactics to sell there spa.
They say that they can keep their water heated without a heater. While this is true, it is also true of nearly all spas.
Once the temperature is where you want it and you have the cover on, it is rare that the heater in any spa will kick on more than just a minuscule amount.
Once you take the cover off and start using the spa, every spa will lose heat and the heater will have to come on(even arctic).
This selling feature of arctic is also a feature of nearly all brands.
Also they color code their plumbing. I first noticed this at an aqua show in Vegas. When I asked the factory rep why they use colored plumbing he replied, " It is so the technicians can tell the difference between the suction and pressure lines." This sounded strange to me.
I happen to be a spa tech, and I see absolutely NO advantage for this. Both the pressure and suction sides of plumbing are glued with the same type of glue, cleaned with the same type of primer, are made out of the same type of material, and both side can develop leaks.
When I asked the factory rep what benifit this provided, he had no answer. My guess is that they use it just so they can make up another "unique" selling feature that doesn't really exist.
All that being said I do believe that it is a sound product. I do not believe it is a good value. |
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| 46 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / The great arctic spa debate!! |
on: Jun 12th, 2004, 9:35am |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by fedmandoo |
I'm looking to start a thread on arctic spas.. feel free to add your opinions good or bad about this spa product. I'd like to hear the pros and cons and tubs owners experiences with the arctic spas. I live in New England and I'm in the research phase of purchasing a spa with a 9k max budget. (we would like to purchase within 3-6 months from now)
Thanks in advance for all your feedback. Fedman |
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| 47 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Hot Tub leaks |
on: Jun 10th, 2004, 1:10pm |
| Started by anxious2tub | Post by spahappy |
on Jun 10th, 2004, 12:54pm, doodoo wrote:
Perhaps the testing that Cajun Mike will be doing with his decibel meter will reveal something about this noise. Or not. Time will tell.
About the full foam or thermopane debate  Like anything else, I am always one to defer to the wisdom that others have aquired through something called EXPERIENCE. I am not all that surprised at your revelations Rboehme and others about the frequency of leaks on full vs thermopane, but a little about the cost factor which is based on time. I guess that that is based on the fact that through experience you can judge where a leak will be coming from and can therefore reach it more quickly.
BTW, I have had the opportunity in the past to dig out full foam. Not a spa but a house. I agree it is messy, but it is very easy to dig out. Once you know out to do it you can minimize the damage (chunks being pulled out) by making nice incisions.
I asked the arctic Spa dealer why he thought that his were better. (He did use this as a benefit pitch) He responded by saying that should a leak be known it would be easy to fix. So I activated the pumps on and off a number of times, which was then picked up by my kids as we talked, and brought to his attention the vibrations that the pipes were being put under each time the pumps were being turned on and off. They literally were moving each time by at least one inch. (caused by the kick of the pumps) Nedless to say that can and does lead to leaks. Which is being confirmed by the service techs here.
Hey gotta call it like you see it.  |
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| 48 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 4th, 2004, 2:06pm |
| Started by Steve | Post by Starlight |
on Jun 4th, 2004, 12:28am, drb wrote:I must be a serious geek - I'm starting to work on a spreadsheet model comparing heat recovery spas to non heat recovery spas. 
When I get it figured out, I'll make it available for comments and messing around with. |
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Yep--a serious geek  But it's the serious geeks who drive technology forward. |
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| 49 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 4th, 2004, 12:28am |
| Started by Steve | Post by drb |
I must be a serious geek - I'm starting to work on a spreadsheet model comparing heat recovery spas to non heat recovery spas.
When I get it figured out, I'll make it available for comments and messing around with. |
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| 51 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 1:53pm |
| Started by Steve | Post by Brewman |
on Jun 3rd, 2004, 12:15pm, Gary wrote:
I feel that most quality spas operating cost are fairly equal. Usage of the spa is the biggest factor in operating cost. The more the cover is off the more it cost.
Gary
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Well stated!
And I can personally vouch for the cover being off part. This past winter, when we were in a cold spell, probably in the low teens above zero, I noticed that my spa cover was unfolded half way. I have no idea how it got that way, or how long it was partially uncovered, but I had to add about 40 or 50 gallons of water (Toting about 4 gallons in a pail at a time) to top it back up. If I recall, my electric bill was probably $20 or more higher than it should have been.
Never did solve that mystery.
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| 52 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 12:40pm |
| Started by Steve | Post by Steve |
I completely agree. If you took the top 6 manufacturers, I doubt there's a $5.00/month difference in operating costs given the same conditions. It's funny really; people spend $8000.00 on a spa and the dealer will split hairs saying how much more energy efficient their's is. These same people will spend $100.00 on a nice supper out a couple times a month and yet beat themselves to death on a full foamed/thermal pain decision. People are funny creatures really!
I guess that's my frustration in the arctic study. Not only can't they provide the results (which makes me think they didn't come out on top) and they use it like everyone else is so much more costly without proof of anything. It's a joke and people should really be looking at how their individual dealer promotes their product and decide if they want to give them their business based on moral integrity.
For those of you searching for info on a spa, make these absurd claims silent by telling these dealers to show proof. Base your decision on comfort, therapy, low maintenance and the history of that individual dealer.
It's funny how so many get caught up in things that equate to about 3% of the purchase. They drive for hours and search for months without the real knowledge needed to make a good purchase. It's not about saving $500.00 anymore. It's far more long-term than that. These people want water falls, misters, disco balls hanging over their tub and pop up TV's. It's time to wake up consumers... you would be upset if someone broke into your bank account and stole thousands but you'll buy into these products without question.
OK.. I'll shut up now!  Rant, rant rant....
Steve |
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| 53 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 12:15pm |
| Started by Steve | Post by Gary |
I was at a service class a couple of years ago in Atlanta provided by Marquis Spas and operation cost came up. The guy there stated Marquis did a test with three spas in a refrigerated truck. The spas were a Marquis, Hot Spring and Sundance. They had sensors all over all three units and had them hooked to power consumption meters. He said what they found out is they were all three just about equal. The two places on all three spas that they found most heat loss was the hinge in the cover and out the bottom of the spa. Marquis added a product called Low-E around the spa and the bottom and added insulation under the hinge of the cover. Not sure if Hot Springs or Sundance has changed anything to their bottoms and cover hinge.
I have one of the new covers and it did help, the last time I got snow it did not melt across the hinge like my old did.
I feel that most quality spas operating cost are fairly equal. Usage of the spa is the biggest factor in operating cost. The more the cover is off the more it cost.
Gary
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| 54 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 10:52am |
| Started by Steve | Post by Chas |
HotSpring spas and many others have also asked for independant studies.
We did hire an independant firm to do an energy study, hoping that others would do the same so at least we could establish a comparison among those makers who had the same tests done, but spa makers are very independant folks....
I have heard that Consumers Digest is reputable, and I have heard that it's not. I tend to think it is, but you have to go with what you know, I guess. |
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| 55 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 4:15am |
| Started by Steve | Post by ZzTop |
on Jun 3rd, 2004, 12:02am, Cajun_Mike wrote:
I am a member of consumer reports online and I emailed them a few weeks ago about them doing a report on hot tubs. I got a response that basically said they would forward my email to the right department, etc. etc....... consumer digest is not nearly as reputable. |
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Mike I have done the same thing. Lets see what happens.
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| 56 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 12:02am |
| Started by Steve | Post by Cajun_Mike |
on Jun 2nd, 2004, 2:56pm, ZzTop wrote:I would love to see someone reputable like Consumer Reports do a rating on Hot Tubs.
I |
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I am a member of consumer reports online and I emailed them a few weeks ago about them doing a report on hot tubs. I got a response that basically said they would forward my email to the right department, etc. etc....... consumer digest is not nearly as reputable. |
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| 57 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 2nd, 2004, 2:56pm |
| Started by Steve | Post by ZzTop |
I would love to see someone reputable like Consumer Reports do a rating on Hot Tubs.
I don't think Consumers digest is reputable as they take money for their ratings. They do not back their ratings with facts.
I have looked at the engineering of a Spa. It sure differs from make to make, Pipe sizing, matching the the flow rates to the number of pumps and jets, Filtration methods, Ozination, re length of contact tube, 24/7 circulation. Foundation design, Wood, or Steel. Full Foam or thermo pane. Costs of operation, Quality of the Spa Shell, estimates of longevity of the pumps, heater etc.
Then there are the distractions such as fiber optic lighting, I understand that repeaters are expensive and hard to replace, Waterfalls, Stereos, TV's, sperm skimmers etc.
It is very hard to get the hard facts, however every one has an opinion. Lots of emotional opinions without one iota of backup to substantiate.
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| 59 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 2nd, 2004, 10:34am |
| Started by Steve | Post by Gary |
When ever I shop for a high dollar item I always tell the salesperson "do not claim it, prove it". Cuts a lot of the BS out.
Gary |
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| 60 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Independent Study - arctic |
on: Jun 2nd, 2004, 1:55am |
| Started by Steve | Post by Steve |
So here's the thing...
I've heard from a couple of dealers and owners talk about this "independent study" but have yet to SEE anything on it.
So let's see it people!! I know that if we conducted an "independent study" and we came out leaps and bounds on top, I would have it plastered all over the web and on every piece of advertising we did! I keep hearing of this but yet nobody can get it. Even customers when they ask for it. They hear the sales pitch, but nothing to show them the results? Hmmmmmmmmm Makes one wonder... 
If someone has it, please share. We've been waiting for a study like this for years. And to think that the company that organized this “study” came out on top supposedly. Whooda thunk it?
Steve
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| 61 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Opinions needed on great hydrotherapy tubs |
on: May 28th, 2004, 10:36pm |
| Started by fedmandoo | Post by fedmandoo |
| I'm a first time tub buyer and one the main reasons for purchasing a tub is to find one that provides great hydrotherapy support. My wife is in recovery from a serious car accident and has chronic pain and her doctors highly recommended a tub for therapy. I’ve been looking around and have talked to Sundance and arctic dealers so far. I like alot of the features that the arctic spas seem to offer. I'm looking for all spa owners’ opinions on any model they have found offer great hydrotherapy. I should also mention that we live in New England Thanks, Fedmandoo |
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| 62 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Spa Bottoms |
on: May 22nd, 2004, 8:28am |
| Started by dazedandconfused | Post by doodoo |
Dazed and condused. We looked at an arctic Spa that had a full plastic bottom. Kinda like a full shell about 1/4'' thick and coming up about 4-6'' on the sides producing a mini casing that the tub sits in. I think?
In looking at the other method which is described by Steve is IMO more effective as it seals the base from moisture penetration. |
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| 63 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic spas in Pennsylvania |
on: May 20th, 2004, 1:58pm |
| Started by tjr | Post by Sandy_T |
We have a dealer in N. Huntington PA, 724-863-2255 Aquadoc Pools. I hope that is relatively close to you or go to www.goarctic.com to get nearest information or email me back,
HOpe that helps
Sandy |
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| 64 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / arctic spas in Pennsylvania |
on: May 14th, 2004, 7:31pm |
| Started by tjr | Post by tjr |
My sister has a yukon s/n 000ex10499 that needs a topside control(temp down wont work).I will be visiting next week and will give her spa the once over to see whats wrong. The person at arctic asked how close to boston she was? Does anyone know if there are any dealers in the stroudsburg area for parts,or spa supply to replace the controls. Components look like gecko at the website.
Thanks
Tom |
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| 65 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Real word on Jacuzzi Spas |
on: May 14th, 2004, 12:53pm |
| Started by johnnythunders | Post by Wisoki |
| Thank Lori & Mendocino 101, Both of your comments are appreciated and true. In efect, I am still a Jacuzzi Premium dealer, since I still have about 9 or 10 of their tubs left to sell. Unfortunatly, JPS isn't going to buy them back. As we speak my new line is being prepared for shipping. I told chaz and a few others on another board that I was going with coleman. Well, after meeting with their eastern US sales "manager" I changed my mind. Had the spas ordered, dealer number, and p.o.p. showroom stuff all in place and ready to go. I had to cancel the order and send all this stuff back. To answer Chris H's question, I am waiting on my Catalina spas to arrive. These spas, Catalina, have a LOT of great features and I think we are going to have a LOT of fun selling them. I looked at Beachcomber, arctic, Coast (hehe), Diamante and a few others. Ultimatly it came down to what I thought was a great product being presented to me be an individual that I liked. |
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| 66 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Shopping for a Hot Tub/Spa - Need help/opinion |
on: May 10th, 2004, 9:19am |
| Started by rock45154 | Post by spaguyohio |
| The Providence is a good spa. If you decide on that one and order it with full foam, do NOT also get the arctic master insulation as well. Friend of mine services for Master, and has seen where folks order both thinking more is better. It causes the spa to overheat. Stick with either artic master (which I have and is very efficient in my opinion) or go with full foam, just dont do both. |
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| 67 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Spa water dumped in lawn |
on: Apr 25th, 2004, 4:30pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Steve |
Oh my dear, sweet princess...
We are currently building our new home and I have pics to show it...
Here's what Edmonton really looks like...
See.... green grass and all. I do own a lawn mower AND a weed wacker FYI
Steve |
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| 68 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Great Lakes Hot Tubs |
on: Apr 6th, 2004, 6:03pm |
| Started by hiker244 | Post by Spatech t.u.o. |
That greatlakespas.com site is an arctic dealer's website. You need the site for the great lakes manufacturer:
http://www.greatlakeshomeandresort.com/
That can't make the Great Lakes manufacturer happy to know most people end up at teh website of a competitior's dealer!! |
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| 69 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: we have had it!!! |
on: Apr 2nd, 2004, 9:32am |
| Started by poopsy | Post by doodoo |
When we started our education (that is what I call our search) about hot tubs back in January, I must have visited well over 15 dealers. We live in the Ottawa area and that is about how many dealers there are. Of these we were able to see the majority of the top end (reputable) spas, HS, Beachcomber, Sundance, Jacuzzi, etc... and to wet test many of them.
What made it difficult for us was the quality of sales that we experienced. No pressure and no trashing of competitors by any of the top brands. As a matter of fact it's amazing that they all knew each other and we got the impression that they also respected each other. We came down to three and after many wet tests decided on the Sundance Optima. In CND $$ our price came to $12,125 which includes the tub, CD Ozonator, the 60amp panel (not connected) LED light, cover and Hydrolic lifter (upgrade) Crane delivery (only way), 18 months of chemicals, 3 micro clean filters and an extra cartridge (large ply filter) all taxes 15.5% and no payments for a year.
But, there were some dealers of medium and lower end but one notable (the arctic dealer comes to mind very quickly) that just did not inspire any confidence and kept comparing his product to the others (mild trashing). Even had our kids jump up and down on the cover to prove some point or other.
All in all. It was a very pleasent experience for us so my advice would be don't give up, try again after some time, your reward will be your own tub. Did we pay too much? Not from my perspective. |
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| 70 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / I pulled the trigger last night! |
on: Apr 1st, 2004, 1:23pm |
| Started by windsurfdog | Post by windsurfdog |
Whew! The search for our hot tub is finally over. Thomas O'Connor at Spa Warehouse in Tampa worked diligently with me and did everything he could to get me into the tub I wanted....and it worked! I'm the proud new owner of a Master Spa LSX, alba pearlescent shell, coastal gray synthetic cabinetry, stainless steel trim rings, lifter, steps, colorscape lighting. Master Spas includes a cd ozonator and mineral purifiers standard with all their tubs. I'm also having it built with their arctic Master thermal pane insulation package instead of the full foam (they will manufacture it either way--no cost difference.) He's also throwing in a year's worth of chems and an extra set of the mineral purifiers. The price started at $9895.00 several months ago and we settled on $7895.00 tonight. Now to get the deck built! WOOHOO!
The best part was earlier tonight when I was told by the local Sundance dealer that he was ticked at me for me "thinking I had the right to offer him a price for his tub" (a Cameo with the options I got with the LSX that I offered him $7500 for. He would go no lower than $8300 for the tub alone!) Well, that put me in the buying mood for sure--BUT NOT WITH HIM! When I got home, there was another message from Tom BEGGING me to buy a Master Spa from Tampa (200+ miles away). I called him up and I told him I still needed to see the Jacuzzis, Marquis's and D1's. He said, "Let's see what we can do to save you some time and effort." He dropped his price and got to my magic number without me having to ask for it. I was so pleased, I just took it and said, "Thank you!" What a great experience feeling like someone wanted my business--even from 200 miles away--opposed to the comments I just heard in my "own back yard". Leave it to say, I'll be a great ambassador for Master Spas and Spa Warehouse if the rest of this journey continues in the same fashion. One last time--WOOHOO!
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| 71 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Help with purchasing optima |
on: Mar 30th, 2004, 11:54am |
| Started by ebirrane | Post by Julie |
Doodoo: The price I talked about was converted into US$ (for the benefit of our American friends ) The price we got was 9500$CDN for the spa, plus 400$CDN for the "kit"(cover lift, LED lighting, GFCI, steps, chemicals), so a total of 9900$CDN. The electrical installation, which we decided to take from their electrician, was another 450$ (includes the wire). The only thing we have left is to prepare the pad With 15% taxes, it brought us to 11900$CDN for a total. Your price doesn't seem so bad if it includes the electrical installation.
We found that prices were comparable for Catalina, a little more for Beachcomber(1000$), more for arctic (2000$). They were cheaper brands as well, but cheaper quality or less therapeuthic benefits.
We bought from a big dealer around here: Club Piscine. They have a web site with all their locations, but it's in French only from what I saw! The closest location for you would be in VAUDREUIL/Dorion 910, boul. Harwood (450) 455-5267. We bought from a store in Laval, just north of Montreal.
Wish you luck with you purchase, and keep us informed about it. I'm impatiently waiting for my Cameo to come home, 1st or second week of May. We will start to work on the pad probably in 2-3 weeks from now, if the spring keeps going like that!
Julie |
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| 72 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Have swim suit- need tub! |
on: Mar 21st, 2004, 12:31pm |
| Started by Big_Trunks | Post by cflrules |
Big Trunks, I really don't think there is a huge difference between all those spas. They are pretty much built and insulated the same way (foam filled), so whatever model feels the most comfy to you would probably be the best choice. Try and do a little research on the reputation of the dealer also, you want to make sure you will have solid customer support.
You said your are in Denver? Was there an arctic dealer at the show? If not, make sure you pay them a visit before you make a decision, it's a good product (especially for your climate).
Say hello to John Elway for me.  |
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| 73 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Beachcomber |
on: Mar 21st, 2004, 12:09pm |
| Started by cmccomb | Post by cflrules |
on Feb 15th, 2004, 11:27pm, Steve wrote:
What sinister mind is behind this? An arctic dealer?
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What's with you jumping all over arctic all the time? Could it be that they are your biggest competitor? I dunno, when I'm shopping for a product and the salesman immediately starts bashing another brand by name , I run for the door.
I think the Beachcomber is a decent spa as well, but two observations I'd like to make:
1. I'm not a big fan of the way they mount the equipment. As stated earlier, putting it in a a wooden box outside of the cabinet and insulation exposes it to whatever the outside temp might be. If your GFI does trip, theres not much time until freeze up. Steve, does Beachcomber use any type of extra freeze protection with the equipment-in-the-stairs option?
Although, if you live in a warm climate, it wouldn't be a problem.
2. Floor drains. This seem to be a big selling feature for alot of spa out there. The advantage of having a floor drain is so that all the old water will drain out, correct?
What customers don't realize is even if the inside of the spa is empty, there will still be several gallons of water in all of your plumbing that you cannot see. Short of blowing out your spa (or flipping it upside down), you cannot fully drain it even with a floor drain.
BTW, the arctic dealer in Barrie is doing absoulely fine. |
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| 74 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 19th, 2004, 12:42am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by cflrules |
on Mar 14th, 2004, 10:23am, Steve wrote:
Are you saying that every full foamed spas have thinner shells? Can you list all manufacturers and the thickness of those shells compared to an arctic? Thanks.
I look forward to your proof of the shell thickness that you are providing as you are very certain of your beliefs. If you don't have it, may I suggest you keep this sort of BS off of the forum. Thanks.
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First off, this "nincompoop" did not disappear. It's show season, just a tad busy with work. Internet surfing is not high on the priority list at the moment.
I am not about to start listing certain spa manufacturers by name with the thicknesses of their shells (the ones I've seen anyways), as this would probably cause absolute hysteria on this board (but if you want proof I can send you some digital photos Steve  ). Although I will say that I have dissected several foam filled spas that claim to have the thickest shells in the industry. All you have do is remove a jet near the bottom of the shell to reveal the actual thickness. Every one I have seen has been much to thin to provide self-support. It is very easy to hide this when the shell is absolutely covered in foam, and tell anyone that will listen that your 1/4" shell is actually 1" thick. How would the consumer know the difference? I am not saying all foam filled spas are designed this way, as I have not seen every brand available. I am basing my opinion on the foam filled spas I have seen, in which none would be able to support themselves without the structural foam.
A suggestion for the shoppers out there - Ask your salesman to get inside of the spa and jump up and down on a lounger or step and see what kind of reaction you get.
Yes, my original post was a little harsh, but hey, I didn't really have a feel for this board yet. I will try to be a little more reserved in future posts. |
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| 75 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Almost there... |
on: Mar 18th, 2004, 10:08pm |
| Started by Julie | Post by Julie |
Informed I'd say I'm more like a computer "system overload"! Too much of something is (almost) never good...
Spas here (in Quebec) are quite a new thing. People here want pools. Why, beats me because you can only use them June, July, August, but hey, those are the same people that close their spa for winter! So brands offered are limited, and many places sell mainly pools, with one line of spa. And I don't feel comfortable buying a brand that has only one dealer in the whole province. What if they close? Like D1, Caldera. No Hot Springs, Marquis or Master around.
So we looked at arctic, spa is OK, quite a few dealers in a radius of 30miles (good), way too pricy for comparables, probably room to deal a lot (come back when you are ready to buy pitch) but I hate that.
Catalina: tub is OK, dealer too, but didn't like it as much as Sundance.
Coast: expensive, gimmicky, didn't like the dealer attitude.
Cal: didn't look at them even thought dealer was recommended by coworker, I listen to you guys!
Dynasty: less therapy than other ones (cheaper too), little more gimmicks than what we want.
Elite spas by Maax: same dealer as Sundance, big one and great businness past, spa not as comfortable as others.
Jacuzzi: same dealer too, didn't feel they were deep enought for me, my head wasn't in the right place. I'm an average 5'5", but I have quite a long torso.
Sundance: confortable, nice jets, nice dealer, price in our budget (upper end), not too many gimmicks.
But, here's a catch: tonight we stopped to the only place around we didn't go before, Beachcomber! Liked the 740 a lot, depth of spa is great except one seat, dealer is another big one (it's just a littl farther than others). That's not good, we were ready to sign for the other one. But it's a whole 1000$CAN more than the Sundance. Is it worth it? It's 10900$CAN +tax for the spa, better cover, protect, synthetic skirt, LEDs lighting, Whirlpool jets, Hush pump, chemicals, cover lift, and GFCI. Dealer is "same price for everyone", fair to me. I just don't know if that price is right for the product.
Ouf! I hate this state of indecision. We'll have to see if we want to pay that price, and decide to schedule a wet test over the week-end if it's the case. |
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| 76 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 17th, 2004, 10:37am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Sandy_T |
| Steve I honestly don't know who posted that notice. As you know I have indicated on my personal information who I am and I don't know who that person is. Obviously the arctic story is the opposite of yours so he was stating his opinion. But I'm sure our " 1 or 2" happy clients probably number up there with happy Jacuzzi, Sundance or HS customers or whatever............There are certain brands I don't like out there as well, but you know what this isn't the place or I feel the way we should promote our industry. So as the Jacuzzi owner says hate arctic, I really couldn't care. Whats the old saying, opinions are like butts (being nice here) everyones got one. |
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| 77 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 17th, 2004, 6:45am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Tman122 |
I would like to add that there is 24 hours in a day. And using the waste heat generated from the pump motor operation is a good idea and not stand alone to arctic. But again running your motor for 8 hours a day leaves 16 hours with a reduced R-factor. Now we could always increase filter time to reduce low R-factor times, but does that make sence? Is the amperage draw and extra longevity decrease on the motor worth the R-factor gained. It seems a few crucial pieces of the puzzle are being left out here. And the funny thing is the people leaving the pieces out are trying to convince others "it makes sence". Well I never leave pieces of the puzzle out to conjure up what makes sence to me. Whats also funny is alot of so called Engineers and thermoldynamic "experts" have seemed also to have left out a few crucial pieces of the puzzle.
What makes sence to me is a quality component installed by skilled craftsman into a comfortable shell design, sold and serviced by a quality company. And that gives us consumers alot of choices that make sence.
As you can see I hate that sales pitch, I do however like the looks of the arctic brand, my neighbor has one. Oh and by the way, it's no more energy effiecient than mine.
Insulation method should not be th deciding factor. |
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| 78 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 16th, 2004, 9:37pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Steve |
I think I did fine all the way through really!
It's too bad you couldn't find it in your post Sandy to recognize the way in which your associates post and address the real issue. It would have been intersting to see you question the post that read "The defintion of a foam-filled spa IMO is "The absolutely worst way to build a spa.". The foam is providing the support for a cheap, weak and inferior spa shell. Stick to a non-foam filled spa, ie-[b]arctic Spas. You will thank yourself down the road." [/b] Was there not anything in that post that you yourself question? Or is it because of the fact that it was an arctic dealer that posted it, you let it slide...?
I agree that this is a professional forum that is designed for the consumer and not us salespeople to bicker on. I maybe stepped out of line when I said it's ALWAYS an arctic salesperson, but as of late, that comment is very accurate. I think others would agree.
I respect everyone here wether they are dealers or just own a hot tub. These people have earned my respect and I learn from all of them. Many of these people I would invite over for a BBQ and a beer (just 1) and would welcome them into my home anytime. These people post their experiences and knowledge for all of us to learn from and take the time to do it here. I respect that!
Others sit in front of their screen touting superior products and making up statements with no validity or accuracy. When asked for real data or proof, they tend not to post again. These people are fluff and don’t belong here IMO.
We can all discuss ownership and shopping questions and have done for some time. Very rarely do these nincompoops stick around for the benefit of the consumers here. They’re in it for themselves and self promotion. No respect in that.
Many of us feel very strongly about our products wether we just own a specific brand or sell it. It certainly doesn't give us the right to post false information or lie. Many of us have been doing this far too long to buy into it. That said, most of us will dispute these posts and demand proof. That's what consumers want. If I posted that Beachcomber builds the most energy efficient spa in the world, would you except that and let the consumer decide? My guess is that you (and everyone else) would be asking me for proof. And so they should!
Don't mistake this for "in fighting" but rather keeping these people honest by questioning them.
Steve |
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| 79 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 16th, 2004, 9:19pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Julie |
OK, I just need to had my 2 cents in that discussion.
First of hall, I’m currently in the process of buying a spa, and I have looked at them for the last year at least (waited for the money, hey!). I read a lot on manufacturer sites, on the forums, …, and I find this forum is full of people with interesting opinions and inputs. I had never posted here yet thought .
In this process, I read and thought a lot about the insulation method. I have an engineering degree in electronics, but I had basic classes on thermodynamics and such, and a solid scientific background, and my boyfriend is a mechanical engineer (very strong bases in thermodynamics). OK, now I come to the point (I know I talk a lot, I’m sorry, I could never get over that). We do believe the thermopane type of insulate makes a lot of sense. You don’t NEED to have full foam to get all good (full) insulation and low operating cost. Recuperating energy from the pump to heat water like arctic does also seems very right to me. And it is much easier to repair if needed. However, it is true that full foam does a good job at supporting plumbing and thus reducing stress on joints and probability of future leakage. Full foam has been done for very long, does it mean that it’s better? If we had always said it’s working, why change, we’d still be driving Ford-T cars.
I really think thermopane is a very good way of insulating a spa, but will I buy an Artic for that? No. I have 2 dealers around, went to one, like the spa, nice look, nice shell layout, but way too expensive: they asked over 1500$ more that the Sundance Cameo, and I didn’t there was any difference to justify it. I would have liked to buy Canadian (I’m in Montreal), but it’s my money and I want to make the most of it. Maybe it can be brought down a lot, but I hate to haggle. I like to have a good price up front, and maybe get it a little bit down and some extras thrown in. So the bottom line is, even thought I believe strongly in thermopane, I don’t base my spa purchase decision on insulation type!
P.S. I’ll try to pitch in more, and not just read as I did. I know that what makes forums alive is the contributors.
Julie
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| 80 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 16th, 2004, 3:49pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Sandy_T |
| Steve You were doing fine until you mentioned that it is "always arctic Salesmen". It really isn't always us. I think if you go back on any subjects if you were being honest EVERYONE has made these statements. Thats what I mean about keeping this a professional board. Let's let the customer decide on our products with out the editorializing and personal attacks. You also can't tell me that any other product doesn't go through the same hype regarding their products, Beachcomber included. WE believe in our products and as sales people and dealers we should. Just because we believe in our products stronger doesn't make yours wrong or shouldn't cause a firestorm coming back regarding any perceived "falsehoods". I could say that anyone "lies" about their product as they use whatever method they could to make a sale, but then I would be stooping down to their level. Let's keep it above reproach. |
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| 81 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 16th, 2004, 1:12pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Steve |
on Mar 16th, 2004, 10:32am, Sandy_T wrote:| Like I have said before we owe our customers the correct information about our products and let them make a decision based on that information. |
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My point exactly Sandy. It's when these salesmen come here making outrageous claims that both themselves and their product lose all credibility. You'll notice that when they are asked to show proof, they disappear? It seems to be routine and unfortunately, it's always an arctic salesperson. It's too bad really because without the hype and BS, they're really a decent product.
Steve |
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| 82 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 14th, 2004, 10:23am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Steve |
on Mar 13th, 2004, 1:58am, cflrules wrote:Steve, you seem to be contradicting yourself.
What did I post that is misleading and inaccurate? I should hope you don't mean my comments on foam filled having thinner shells?
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Let me explain my position and give you clarity my arctic friend.
I said your "opinion" of full foam being used for supporting weak shells is archaic. The quote of yours I totally agreed with is "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". My point being that we've been building fully insulated spas for 26 years and obviously it is clear to people that it works. If it didn’t, there’s no way we could continue to grow and be as successful as we are.
I'm not sure where I contradicted myself in any of that?
Are you saying that every full foamed spas have thinner shells? Can you list all manufacturers and the thickness of those shells compared to an arctic? Thanks.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but we're just trying to help your credibility for proper debating techniques.
I look forward to your proof of the shell thickness that you are providing as you are very certain of your beliefs. If you don't have it, may I suggest you keep this sort of BS off of the forum. Thanks.
Steve
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| 83 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 13th, 2004, 9:08am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by tony |
| I just got my first look at an arctic spa with all the side panels off. I am amazed at how little insulation is used. I thought it would at least have a little substance to it. Doesn't have me convinced yet. |
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| 84 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 13th, 2004, 1:58am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by cflrules |
Steve, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You call the arctic pitch "old and tired" in one post, and yet you "totally agree" when I state that it makes sense in the next post.
What did I post that is misleading and inaccurate? I should hope you don't mean my comments on foam filled having thinner shells? I do believe that a self-supporting, thicker hull is an advantage and I do not force this upon anybody, it is up for the consumer to decide. Yes, my first post was probably a little opinionated, but again, this is a discussion forum, correct? Conflicting opinions will be a common occurence.
Also, promoting a companys product certainly does not make that company "look bad"! This forum is obviously here to aid in the tough decision making process the consumer faces when purchasing a spa, so please don't jump all over me for giving my views on the subject.
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| 85 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 13th, 2004, 12:31am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Steve |
on Mar 12th, 2004, 7:04pm, cflrules wrote: Steve, let's refer back to the old saying, "If it's not broken, why fix it"
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I totally agree. That's why companies like Beachcomber and HotSprings have been continuing to build quality fully insulated spas for over 25 years. If it ain’t broke, don't fix it!!
As Tech said, there are quality spas with both insulation methods. Note to all arctic sales people: There's room for all of us. There's no need to resort to misleading, inaccurate information. It just makes you look bad and more importantly, your company.
I don't quite fully understand your comment though that you're not here representing arctic? It does say "arctic Spas, They just make sense" as your signature right?
Just to add to this, I just wanted to say that Techs latest post in this thread is one of the best I've read on any forum since I started 2 years ago. Kudos to ya my friend!
Steve |
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| 86 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 12th, 2004, 7:04pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by cflrules |
Steve, let's refer back to the old saying, "If it's not broken, why fix it?". The arctic pitch works beacause it makes sense, regardless of how "old and tired" it may seem. Thanks for the offer of your superior marketing ideas though.
wmccall, you must have missed the "IMO" in my statement, I am just giving you my opinion. I am not representing arctic, I am telling you what I think. This is a discussion forum, right?
I would suggest that your spa is not a true foam filled spa, as you can actually see some of the plumbing to the left of your pack. What brand is it?
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| 87 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 12th, 2004, 5:13pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Brewman |
on Mar 11th, 2004, 7:39pm, cflrules wrote:| The defintion of a foam-filled spa IMO is "The absolutely worst way to build a spa.". The foam is providing the support for a cheap, weak and inferior spa shell. Stick to a non-foam filled spa, ie-arctic Spas. You will thank yourself down the road. |
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Sounds like a page from the book of Jim. |
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| 88 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 12th, 2004, 11:44am |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Steve |
Great... another intelligent arctic salesperson.
Thanks for the infomercial. Can't you guys come up with something a little more unique than a 10 year old sales pitch? It's old and tired and you should really work on some new material.
For $150.00 /hr I can help with your marketing concepts and sales tactics.
Steve |
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| 89 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 11th, 2004, 7:39pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by cflrules |
| The defintion of a foam-filled spa IMO is "The absolutely worst way to build a spa.". The foam is providing the support for a cheap, weak and inferior spa shell. Stick to a non-foam filled spa, ie-arctic Spas. You will thank yourself down the road. |
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| 90 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 7th, 2004, 12:04pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by Spa_Tech |
I respectfully disagree with Tony.
The spa depicted is a partially foamed spa and the presence of vents by no means differentiates it as a full foam spa. (There are both thermal pane and full foam spas with cabinet vents near the equipment area.)
By definition a full foam spa has all the cavities between the cabinet skirt and the spa shell filled with expanding foam insulation.
A thermal pane spa is constructed so there are cavities of air beneath the skirt often using hard foam board insulation on the cabinet panels, which is what the "arctic foam package" appears to be. The expanding foam may be of varying thicknesses between manufacturers, but the construction of cavities under the skirt is the same.
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| 91 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Define full foam |
on: Mar 3rd, 2004, 1:18pm |
| Started by wmccall | Post by tony |
That looks like full foam to me with the front area cavity for the pumps and equipment. I just had a very close look at an arctic Spa which is thermo pane. There is a thin coat of foam on the shell and a thin coat on the interior of the cabinet and all the plumbing underneath is exposed. It looks much diffferent than yours.
If you have vents on the front of the cabinet, it is definitely full foam. |
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| 92 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Thermo Spa |
on: Mar 2nd, 2004, 11:34am |
| Started by Diane | Post by Sandy_T |
| I agree that foam insulation is certainly the way to go and that is why arctic Spas uses 2 lb foam on our perimeter insulation. I don’t think you need to spray the whole tub with insulation to better insulate the tub. The more foam certainly doesn’t mean the better insulation. (as the Colorado energy site says, polyurethane foam is r value of 6.25 per inch.) I am also aware of how most of the manufacturers have been making their tubs for the past 30 years, but you know what, maybe in the past so many years design and construction principles have changed and possibly for the better. A lot has happened in 30 years regarding materials, technology. We feel our tub design among others benefits, (and I am not knocking any other companies design, we just choose to do it this way and leave it up to the consumer to pick their product.) gives the owners the better opportunity to upgrade their tub down the road whether it’s because your physical needs change or to take advantage of new technology, it’s better to service their tubs down the road, and that doesn’t mean because we build it this way it’s prone to fault, all tubs could have problems and we all know this. You will also find that our reflex torsion hose doesn’t wobble around and loosen up because their not buried in foam. The important thing is to shop around, check out the different manufacturers and how their products are built, look underneath a tub just as you would look under the hood of a car and also ask yourself , if the sales person made sense in what their describing. The most important thing is to wet test. Make sure you sit in the tub full of water and take it for a “test drive”. Then Happy Tubbing !!!! |
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| 94 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Thermo Spa |
on: Mar 1st, 2004, 3:52pm |
| Started by Diane | Post by Sandy_T |
Hi Diane Checking out spas can be confusing but please do take the time to shop around. I work for arctic Spas and obviously have a bias for our product as do some of the other postees here. You are right though a full foamed spa does have it's drawbacks. Please go to www.goarctic.com and see exactly how we construct our tubs,
If you requrie any help please ask,
Good Luck !
Sandy |
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| 96 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Beachcomber |
on: Feb 20th, 2004, 8:31pm |
| Started by cmccomb | Post by Steve |
Well the ever lovely and talented Lesley! great to hear from you my dear.
This is a wonderful surprise to have you here. It would have been great to see you to at conference as well but someone had to steer the ship. We're shipwrecked now but that's beside the point!
I hope you had a great time with Mickey & Minnie down south and I really would have loved to be there.
God forbid any of you arctic people are from the Barrie area! This lady is the best we have out there so I would just move if I were you!!
As always, great to hear from you and don't be a stranger K?
Steve |
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| 97 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Feb 18th, 2004, 3:20pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Sandy_T |
Steve Thanks for your comments. I don't mind a god debate on products out there as long as it is kept on a professional basis, as I'm sure you do. REgarding the upgrading it would approximately run between 70-100.00 per jet depending on the dealer and what were upgrading. If a new pump is needed then whatever the price for a pump is worth would be the cost, again depends on the dealer,
I thought you would appreciate my tree house remark,
Sandy |
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| 98 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Feb 17th, 2004, 4:44pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
I had a couple "however's" as well but I was going to wait a day or so.
Heat lock may very well be a great method but often it is oversold, over embellished, and overstated. It's arctic that promotes heating without a heater, nobody else. If you're going to blow smoke (collectively as a company) then stick around for the comments and questions as well.
I've always had a major problem with upgrading down the road in your sales pitch. So I own an arctic and 5 years later I want to add 8 more jets. What is the cost to do so? Hopefully your quote includes upgrading or adding another pump as adding more jets will directly effect the GPM of your tub quite dramatically. It would be interesting to get a quote of adding 8 more jets. Can you do that for us?
Your independent test was interesting. The owner of arctic should stop the BS though. If you guys were deemed the best hot tub in the world, why haven't we all seen this plastered all over? I mean MAN... I would be running down the street with a big sign telling everyone just how great we were. Yeh.... independent testing. It's a wonderful thing.
As for the treehouse, wasn't that the coolest thing? You gotta see this thing. 1000 sq ft. with a built in hot tub (not an arctic I don't think), running water and electrical. It's amazing and the founder of Beachcomber is an amazing man. Sometimes company promotion is just about the people behind the product and not twisted tests and empty claims. Said respectfully of course!
Steve |
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| 99 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Feb 17th, 2004, 3:47pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Wisoki |
| Yes, I agree with Steve, good post Sandy. HOWEVER (knew that was comming, didn'tcha!) The fiberglass base is nothing new. Jacuzzi used fiberglass for their suport bases for decades. They abandon it in favor of a more durable and light weight ABS base about 5 years ago. Even then Jacuzzi required the spas be on a proper foundation. These weren't cheese ball fiberglass pans either(I'm not saying arctics are). They were at least 1/4 inch thick. I am of the opinion that regardless of what is on bottom of your spa, you'd be a fool to place it directly on the ground. With the freeze thaw cycles many of us experience, the risk of ground heave is too great to trust the unstable always changing earth with MY 4,5,6,7 or 8 thousand+ dollar spa. I do think the ABS or fiberglass bases are imparitive for the protection of your spas equipment from standing water and varmints though. Now, I'm not saying arctics are better or worse, just nothing new. And as I think most everyone here knows, I am a Jacuzzi Premium Spas dealer. |
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| 101 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Feb 17th, 2004, 10:51am |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Sandy_T |
I guess it’s my time to wade in here as well. Firstly, I work for arctic Spas. That being said I think everyone who works in the industry should at least be courteous enough to let that be known from the beginning. Let’s advise potential customers that the information their getting is from people associated with the industry and the comments might be biased.
In regards to arctic spas and their construction, here are a couple of points. The heat lock system works, simple as that. If you put foam on your shell there is no way that heat from your pumps will assist in heating the water. The forever floor is a fiberglass, gel coated floor. ABS and pressure treated wood floors just don’t last as long. You don’t require a pad to put your spa on. You don’t need a tub blown full of foam to provide better insulation. Our pumps are rated to work in an ambient temperature of 50 C (125 F) (it says so right on the pump) and also have a 5 year warranty. The same pumps have a 10 year warranty on our Legend SE models. No, were not worried about the pumps or any of our equipment not working in an insulated cavity. In regards to the comfort of our spas and armrests not being comfortable, we have 10 molds so finding one to suit your individual needs is not a problem.
Let me put something else out there. How about upgrading your tub down the road? What happens if your physical needs change? What happens if technology changes and comes out with a new jet and you want to take advantage of it? What happens if after your warranty expires you need service work done? What tub is the easiest to get at?
The bottom line is this. If you are looking for a hot tub, shop, shop, shop. Go to all the major tub manufacturers and ask questions. Listen to what their saying and ask yourself, if it make sense to you. Look under the tubs themselves. All of our products really look the same on top but look underneath the hood. How long has the dealer been around? Get some testimonials from their customers. Finally, get in some tubs. Do a wet test and sit in a few tubs before you make a purchase.
Obviously, I want people to buy an arctic Spa. I feel it is the best tub out there and our dealers are terrific in how they service our customers during and after the sales process. Our job is to provide the customer with the most accurate information regarding our products and then let them make their decision based on their facts.
I also think you should be a little careful about saying results are “faked”. I really don’t think that showing a video of someone in a tree house in Squamish shows the best about a product. But, then again maybe their just trying to deflect attention from the product. I was just kidding of course.
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| 102 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Beachcomber |
on: Feb 15th, 2004, 11:27pm |
| Started by cmccomb | Post by Steve |
Well.... I have been applying all day long since finding out about our terrible fate. Surely all 400 dealers will be out of business by tomorrow and we will be no more. What sinister mind is behind this? An arctic dealer? Maybe an engineer wannabe? Maybe his dog-walking sidekick with a direct pulse on our Eastern dealers?
I’m left with no choice...
I'm looking into starting a hot tub business where there's no need for electrical hook up as the one I am engineering will be so advanced that an electrical supply to the hot tub would be nothing short of redundant.
I'm going to call it the "out of dait system". It will heat the water by thermodynamics. I will thin out the PVC to a point where heat transfer from the PVC will pass into our cabinet entering different chambers. These chambers will be partitioned off to adjust for ambient weather conditions and will be a shiny, reflective material much like tin foil (Ok...it IS tin foil). These segmented compartments will superheat from the friction of little mice running inside and this will be the best engineered product available. No more heating those darn tubs with pesky heaters.
I am offering sales only through my web site and I am currently scouting bicycle repair people to service them within a 15 mile radius of my house. Anything further.... too bad sunshine! Hope yer a handy sorta guy!
McDonalds should be calling back if this doesn't work out!
O woe is me
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| 103 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Feb 15th, 2004, 6:36pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
hottubbuyer (AKA arctic salesperson)
The timing of your worthless posts shows us all just how little you know and bating this board is something that will get you banned. Being an arctic sales guy (and it's real easy to tell ), I suggest you come clean and debate like an adult.
I'm sure Mommy will let you play here a little longer if you do. Go ask... we'll wait....
Steve |
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| 104 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Feb 15th, 2004, 3:44pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by hottubbuyer |
I am writing this one last post to tell everyone you have not helped what so ever I asked one simple question and have received no help from all your jiberish responses.....
I have sinced purchased a Kodiak Legend from arctic Spas and cant be more happy with it, and just a note to all the people that just come on here to bash a product you are by no means helping out your business by doing so you actually helped me decide who I didnt want to do business with!!
and by the way the salesperson I dealt with from arctic Spas was very helpful and straightforward and never once claimed that they NEVER use the heater
P.S. about to receive my first hydro bill in the next few weeks, I have a meter attached directly to the tub and will let everyone know the results shortly!
again thanks for nothing!!!!! |
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| 106 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Cost of running an arctic spa in winter? |
on: Feb 4th, 2004, 1:22pm |
| Started by Rudy | Post by Steve |
arctic makes a decent product that shouldn't dramatically show an increase in your energy consumption. There's so many factors that make up your bill and it's sometimes difficult to pinpoint the source of any one contributer.
Do you notice the tub kicking on much more to maintain heat? Being a partially insulated tub, heat loss can play a role but chances are it's a combination of many things including the tub.
If you are convinced it's the spa, get your dealer to meter it for 6 months. They will come out and install a meter strictly for the tub itself.
If it is the tub, we take trade-ins
Steve
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| 107 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Cost of running an arctic spa in winter? |
on: Feb 4th, 2004, 12:50pm |
| Started by Rudy | Post by Rudy |
| I have an Artic Yukon, It has 2-220v pumps set to cycle 3 times a day for 2 hours a cycle on low speed. We have had it up and running since September with no real increase on our electric bill, About $ 12.00 a month more to run it. I live in the Chicago area, and we have been having some cold weather and my bill shot way up thios last month. Has anyone run into this problem. Have not done anything different in way of electricity than last year at this time except for the addition of the tub. Does the heater kicking on really add up?.I'm not loosing very much heat in the tub, snow and ice on the outside cabinet and top? any ideas? |
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| 109 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 17th, 2004, 11:50pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
My point exactly Wisoki. Nobody is disputing that amperage is a constant. HOW MUCH amperage is the question that Mark seems to be missing.
In broken-down terms, the sales pitch is that the motors supply heat to keep the empty cabinet warm. How much energy/watts does an arctic or any other thermo pane spa take to produce this heat? If it's more than another spa to produce this amount of heat, is it a better system? What is the total draw on an arctic when it is in a filtration (low speed) cycle?
At no point have I stated engineering wisdom or superior knowledge on every manufacturer out there. I do however know my product and have repeatedly asked the boys at arctic these very simple questions. I have yet to see a response with any facts, evidence, reports or documentation to show their theory of SUPERIORITY. My main area of frustration with them.
I do apologize for the"wacko" comment but your original post came across as somewhat patronizing. Wisoki saw it the same as I and I'm sure many others did as well.
I appreciate your attempt to clear some of these questions as I am very interested in fully understanding this concept. Hopefully, your knowledge combined with the intelligence of Wisoki and others, will help us understand better how both systems operate and if one really IS more economical.
Steve |
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| 110 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 17th, 2004, 11:08pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Wisoki |
| True fact, amps will not change. If the pumps draw 8 ams each (assuming there are only two), the circulation pump draws 4 and the heater draws 18, then your max total amp draw is 38 amps. If you are on a 50 amp circuit, you need to draw les than 90% of the amperage or you will trip the gfci. that means your spa on a 50a gfci can draw as much as 45amps before it trips the gfci. If all components are working properly you will only be drawing 38 amps with all components running only 4 amps when the circulation pump is on and not calling for heat, but drawing 22 amps when the circulation pump is on with the heater, but no other pumps are on. HMMMM, I guess there are some ampre variables, go figure. |
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| 111 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 17th, 2004, 8:32pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
At no point did I say it doesn't work. For more clarity on my questions and overall feelings of the sales tactics I'm questioning Mark, please slow down and re-read this thread.
Though I do question the "science" you introduce, the reality is that the variables that you are lacking are plentiful. When you take science and apply it to hot tubs as opposed to a cup of hot coffee, the many factors that you have excluded would be cause for further examination by you instead of quoting from a web site.
If after re-reading this thread, you still have questions you would like to address Mark, I would be more than happy to respond. If your attitude is that you can't debate with adults respectfully, I will forward you the link to another spa forum which can accommodate you better.
Steve |
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| 112 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 17th, 2004, 3:58pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Wisoki |
| Mark, read the posts in order. I made no reply to any of your posts until you went at Steve. I don't dispute that thermo pane thermaly closed thermal wraped or whatever you guys are calling your type of insulation these days works the way y'all say it does. Great, that's ONE way of making a tub. Then to come back and be condescending to the readers here and say "if you don't get it, I'll be happy to simplify it for you." You sound just like another unwelcom spa sales peson that is no longer allowed on this or any other board that I know of, save his own. As far as I'm concerned, you can pound sand. If you don't understand that I'd be happy to simplify it for you, just ask. |
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| 113 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 17th, 2004, 9:24am |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by wmccall |
on Jan 17th, 2004, 5:40am, Wisoki wrote:| Verry suspicious sounding posts from MB |
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As someone with a degree in electronics, Mark B demonstrates a basic comprhension of Ohm's law, but he is so vague in his use of it to add little to his silly vindicitive posting method. |
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| 115 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 16th, 2004, 11:36pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
Thanks CC for the update. You have blown the arctic sales pitch right out the window with that post!!
Glad you're enjoying your tub!
That wacko Mark B (JA) (above post) a friend of yours? He's a piece of work with some really poor knowledge of how electrical motors and thermodynamics really work.
Yep, air infiltration (-35 conditions) works real well.
Enjoy the heat wave CC...
Steve |
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| 116 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 14th, 2004, 8:32pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
on Jan 14th, 2004, 6:18pm, Cold Canadian wrote:
Hey Steve.. who you calling an "odd customer"? Is that any way for a dealer to treat a prospective buyer!!!
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The term "odd customer" meaning "not all, but some". Not odd like you might be thinking. Sheeesh...
A prospective buyer? Who might that be? YOU? LOL
We do take trade-ins CC but a year and a half old arctic will be worth about $500.00.
I've said this before but for your clarity CC, I'll explain my position.
I don't come here in any way to SELL. I get enough of that all day long thank you very much. I don't even come here to promote the company I work for but I will defend my company and designs if asked.
No one here or on any other forum has been e-mailed by myself to explore the opportunity to purchase a Beachcomber and never will. This forum is in no way a selling tool as neither myself nor the sysop would find that ethical.
I have helped people in other cities/countries with their purchase and give my opinions, but I have never benefitted directly other than the warm, gushy feeling I get for helping people with this difficult purchase.
Steve |
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| 117 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 12th, 2004, 5:57pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Lori |
I have to admit, I was lucky!
All of the dealers in my area were extremely professional, they all encouraged me to look at everything available to me. They all sold on the merits of the particular brand they sold. I hated that I couldn't buy one from each...lol  !!!
A credible dealer who will answer any and all questions you have is really important in a big purchase such as a spa!!!
Thank you to the dealers on this forum, who are willing to share their wealth of knowledge and experience! |
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| 118 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 12th, 2004, 12:11pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
Thanks Jason for your post and kind words. I'm sure many here won't agree with your assesment of me but it's appreciated none the less!
Most quality spas (including arctic) run on 220V. arctic spas do have heaters but they suggest that they are redundant because of their superior cabinet and insulation methods. If only someone could answer my questions in this thread and explain these wild claims of heating without a heater! It's funny how the odd salesperson from arctic will show up here and fire off these claims, but never stick around long enough to back them up with any facts. You saw how arcticguy handled my questions... He couldn't!
I do accept that a hot tub doesn't have to be completely full foamed to operate somewhat economically. There are good spas that aren't full foamed but none that make claims that arctic does (OK, maybe one interent dealer with a poor reputation of service) that suggest the average consumer is an idiot. I agree completely with you Jason in that the dealer has to start treating consumers with respect. We all need to start questioning these people with wild claims and make up our own minds based on their techniques of sales.
Steve |
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| 119 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 11th, 2004, 4:15pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
on Jan 11th, 2004, 2:31pm, hottubbuyer wrote:| Steve, you seem to be very against arctic's in all aspects |
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If that's all you came away with in this thread, I'm sorry your comprehension isn't better.
One quote of mine is "arctic makes a decent product. Where I get bent is when I read or hear about heating without heaters and the BEST blah, blah, blah.... "
Steve
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| 120 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 11th, 2004, 1:04am |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
I had an earlier reply to this which I'm modifying.
I totally agree with cold Canadian and whining or not as perceived by him, it is more the salesmanship that I'm questioning. Call it what you want but everything I have posted here is fact whether you chose to believe it or not.
arctic makes a decent product. Where I get bent is when I read or hear about heating without heaters and the BEST blah, blah, blah....
The issue I have besides the owner of the company lying to me (and I assume many others), is that they have always felt the need to embellish their product & features to sell it. The end user will find a reliable product which is easy to repair when it freezes and leaks (arctic’s sales pitch..not mine!), but leave out the BS of supremacy. They often remind me of our lame JA when it comes to complete BS and overstating truth. Their reputation would improve as a company if they relied solely on their strengths without the sleazy pitches they have become known for in our industry. They are one of the easiest companies to sell against because of it and the sooner they realize it, the more successful they will become. Makes me wonder why I’m writing this??
You may view this as “bickering between dealers” but the information written here is for spa shoppers as well as existing dealers to ponder. As I’ve always said, if you don’t like what I type, don’t read it and form your opinion of me as you wish, but you will find nothing but straightforward answers from me. Sometimes I’m too abrupt but welcome to ME!
If there's posts that make false claims, I will question it. It's way too easy to type whatever you want here and walk away. When this happens often enough, reputations are developed and when no one can step up and answer the real tough questions, that's when the odd customer will appear with a simple post saying they love their tub. Great, but not what I was questioning at all.
Steve |
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| 123 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 5th, 2004, 3:23pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
Ahhhhh the 'ol heating without a heater story. One of my personal fav's!
I've been in arctic a number of times and witnessed the sales story first hand.
Couple questions while you're here:
How many amps are being drawn in a 24 hour period to maintain this amazing temperature within your cabinet of little insulation?
How much heat (in watts) is being transferred while the pump is on low filtration speed?
Does the cabinet of an arctic spa seal the tub 100% completely from the ambient temperature?
How do your pumps enjoy being in this superheated compartment? Is it good for the pumps?
I look forward to your response. Oh... and where's your store? I just might stop in! I know most of the guys in our city and they're a pretty good bunch of guys. I just didn't like the owner lying to me.
Steve
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| 124 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Are arctic Spas really as good as they seem?? |
on: Jan 4th, 2004, 8:34pm |
| Started by hottubbuyer | Post by Steve |
arctic makes a good tub. Not a great tub.
The "forever" floor is a redundant and expensive feature as most quality spas have a pressure treated base that seals the entire bottom of the spa anyway preventing critters from entering. This is one of the reasons I believe arctic spas are very overpriced.
I have never sat in a spa that has armrests built in and found it remotely comfortable. Get in a spa filled with hot water and see how functional those armrests really are. I find them to have very restricted seating and many of the molds they are currently using are designs from the late 80's.
I have yet to have someone show me how heat transfered from pumps that only put off heat when the pumps are on high speed during usage (less than an hour per day) can actually aid in energy efficiency. Combine that with very little insulation in arctic spas and in my opinion, there is much wasted heat loss. If you're not in a terribly cold climate I would consider purchasing one assuming you find it comfortable. Otherwise...
They have also had an issue with a private company who did research on energy efficiency paid by arctic themselves. I know that the owner gave me information
based on these "results" long before they were completed. He told me that "Actic spas were 30% more energy efficient than the next closest manufacturer" based on this test. I got the information on who the company running this test was and about 95% of the details the owner of arctic gave me were incorrect. Not a company I would want to do business with myself. If they have to lie about fake results to prove their "superiority", what does it say about the person running this company?
On the positive side, they do provide Canadians with work. Mostly service guys but hey... J/K
I do know some that love their arctic and that's great. My point being that there's many aspects to this purchase and value for your money is really hard to determine without knowing what many of us in the industry do.
Steve
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| 125 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Master vrs LA Spas |
on: Nov 24th, 2003, 6:28pm |
| Started by sterrett19 | Post by coop |
Both are great spas i looked at the master lsx did not buy bought a sundance but the master is really good. If you are looking for overwhelming power the master is superior to the other spa but make sure you check out the arctic insulation on the master that was what turned me off to the spa move a side panel that has arctic insulation you will find it to be styrofoam panels. If you buy the master order it with the optional full foam insulation rather than the arctic. this is just my observation but strangely the saleperson also agreed.. good luck on your spa hunt..
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| 126 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Artic Signature Series Avalanch vs Sundance Op |
on: Nov 8th, 2003, 7:38am |
| Started by Wayne | Post by rrdstr |
Boy, it sure makes it difficult for the average person to decide on what technical advantages one manufacturer has over the other. From the perspective of the elite in the hot tub business, both arctic and Sundance are there. Having said that, I am an average person who has had two arctic tubs in the past two years. I bought the Kodiak, when they didn't have the Legend Series two years ago and loved it so much that when I could afford it I updraded to the Legend with a blower on it. Eighty one jets with three pumps. I love the tub and am in it three days out of four.
A couple observations:
- I do not have one complaint about the set-ups of both tubs that I have had.
- I live in Ontario (Canada) and have not noticed any significant change in my electrical bill even in the winter. I am anil when it comes to personal finances, and I would have noticed a significant difference if it had actually been there.
- Failing the expertise of the technical guys, a full foam tub will be a pain to tunnel in the fix in five years. I know others that have them and hate them for that reason. The lay out of the arctic internally is extremely simplistic to repair if there is a problem. I haven't had one maintenance call in two years.
- I would recommend the fibreglass floor for under the tub which is standard on the Legend Series but I think optional on the rest. Plywood floors will eventually rot, fibreglass won't.
- Another reason I upgraded to the Legend Series was the 10 year warranty on the mechanics. It is the same pumps, controller as the signature series, but arctic was probably comfortable enough to throw in the extra warranty on the higher priced Legend Series.
- I think the Avalanche has two loungers. If you absolutely positively want that, go for it, but the loungers from my experience are the least enjoyable seating in any hot tub. The Avalanche has just one and that is sufficent for me for variety sake.
Good luck on your decision, as it was the hardest decision that I ever had to make. It was easier for me to buy a sports car then buy a hot tub. |
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| 128 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 21st, 2003, 6:36pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
Hey Autoplay.
Our conference is set for the weekend of January 24th. It turns out we have one of our largest homeshows here that weekend so it's still undecided if and who's going to Florida for this. I'm more than a little disappointed about the whole thing as I've never been your way before and was really looking forward to it.
The frozen tundra here is in full swing in January and the thought of going to Florida had some real appeal.
We've had a good year thanks for asking and have taken on some interesting lines in our store. Barstools, leather and massage chairs to be exact. It's been going very well to date.
So where are you relocating to?
Steve |
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| 130 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 21st, 2003, 12:09pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by autoplay |
Steve......when are you coming to FL for Vacation?
Sue and I are gonna be relocating probably in Jan-march of next year.
Hope to see/visit with ya before we leave.
Oh,how's business in Canada treating ya this year? |
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| 131 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 21st, 2003, 12:01pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
Your quote was "proper spelling and grammer [sp] is for ppl who cant do math or fix things.....and you are a perfect example of a great speller"
My post was humor based and if I have to explain EVERYTHING, it really defeats the purpose of attempting it. I'm aware of the fact that I only listed 2 items. SEE THE HUMOR? I'll type slower next time!
The mean & nasty STEVE |
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| 132 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 21st, 2003, 11:11am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Bad_Apple |
| LOL ya think Roger.... .....seriously i belive steve/nipsy or what ever name he goes by does give out some great advice/info on HT.....he just needs to realize some of us ....have spotted his mean streak that he tries to act like does not exist....me I am know I am a azzhole....but I only play 1 in here not in real life.....cause I quit drinking 10 yrs ago |
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| 133 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 21st, 2003, 10:10am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Bad_Apple |
| You sound like you went thru a beachcomber repair mans course there Steve ....but i only saw 2 things .......you fixed not 3.....poor math skills in adding and deductive reasoning but once again great spelling and gramer (locks only count as 1 thing) just because there were 2 of them it is still the same item |
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| 134 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 21st, 2003, 7:16am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Bad_Apple |
| Well Steve spelling is not a requirement in my Bizz....but math , engineering and mechanical ability are....proper spelling and grammer is for ppl who cant do math or fix things.....and you are a perfect example of a great speller |
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| 135 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 20th, 2003, 10:42pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
20 years in the nuclear fuel "buissness" eh? I hope them thar teachers are proud of "themselfs" for not learnin ya how to spell too well! And I was just about to be impressed too!
Steve
(Sticking to selling hot tubs and practicing proper grammar and spelling techniques) |
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| 136 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 20th, 2003, 8:43pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Bad_Apple |
| Actually Steve there is more problems with rods leaking in reactors not the reactors themselfs.....now you are talking about my line of work 20 plus yrs in the nuclear fuel buissness....but i will not bore ya with details cause i dont think you would have clue about them anyways stick to selling Hot tubs |
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| 137 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 20th, 2003, 7:45pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
Them nuclear reators ain't that hard to fix either really! Now THAT'S something you don't ever want to leak!
LMAO
Steve |
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| 138 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 20th, 2003, 5:27pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by adiepie |
Children children!! Now can't we all be good boys (and girls) and all kiss and make up!!!!
Don't spoil a good thread with sniping and snide remarks
PLEASE! |
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| 139 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 20th, 2003, 12:45pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Bad_Apple |
| LOL all I can say Drift is one mans piece of junk is another mans treasure.... and it is much better to be in the *Clique* than to be in a cult....at least in the *clique* you have other ppl who think you are cool too....in cults you must conform to the brainwashing and wear those white or orange colored robes |
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| 140 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / ;DRe: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 20th, 2003, 11:06am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Drifter |
| Wait BA you're defending a guy that says he's seen Wal Mart Spas that are better than Beachcombers? Ummm might want to do a reality check and see what team you'd rather be on. lol I mean really, if you're going to make that type of absurd statement how about backing it up with some reasonable facts as to why you have that thought, so we can all point out your obvious mistakes. That is unless you're from the school of the permently brain impaired JA cult, who's leader is the king of making outlandish, unsupported, and unsubstantiated statements. BTW "nothing personal" |
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| 142 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 19th, 2003, 10:28pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
There's a clique here? Did you start it BA?
I love those "nothing personal" posts. Now run along Mark as Jim is waiting for you.
Using the term "salesman" as if it's derogatory is lame. Remember that we all have families, homes, cars and friends and breath in and out just like you. I'm gonna bet that no matter what your profession is, that you try to "sell" your ideas to your fellow employees/boss as well as your family on a daily basis. Welcome to salesmanship 101 at ground level Mark! Spit & polish is all you need now!
We're all salespeople to some degree. Some are just better at explaining and transferring information than others and your post shows that. Don't worry Mark.... it takes training to properly communicate ideas and suggestions. If you learnt how, you might improve your own skills in what YOU do.
Nothing personal of course Mark!
Steve |
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| 143 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 19th, 2003, 8:37pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Bad_Apple |
| Great point Roger...I just puked on your reply .....hey Mark dont you know not to go up against or have a different view from the Clique.... |
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| 144 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 19th, 2003, 2:24pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
Thanks for the reply Mark. Now that you have shown just how little you know about spas, care to discuss your findings in detail?
Anything coherent you have to say?
Start a new thread and I'll do my best to inform you.
Have a great day!!
Steve |
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| 146 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 17th, 2003, 11:05am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
Zeke,
The last 2 on your list don't really qualify. But I assume you are intelligent enough to realize that.
The first one (of those 2) is specific to one brand while spending all other time bashing questions on any other brand.
The second is about 80% (or higher?) on pools not spas.
Though, the second is not about branding and that makes it impartial. |
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| 147 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 17th, 2003, 12:43am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
The guy is seeking legal action on an item where it's clearly stated that the warranty isn't transferable. Fairly common practice in this industry. The lawyers will win and that's about it.
The guy is certainly having a problem and it would be nice for Sundance to step up and help in some way but they certainly don't have to. I don't think this is similar at all to the Firestone problem. Leaks won't kill anyone!
A bit of an over reaction I'd say...
Steve |
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| 148 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 16th, 2003, 11:10pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Wisoki |
| IMO a very misleading web page. There is no indication if the spa had sat empty for a year or fell into some other neglect category. The guy that posted that page only sounds pissed off because the warranty only covers the orriginal owner. IMO not a reliable place for info. |
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| 149 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 1st, 2003, 8:29am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
Hey there little fella.
Why would you buy a FF Marquis?
And in my area, I assure you could indeed do better -- by a max of $150.
Personally my time is worth MUCH MORE THAN THAT.
Now, run along and play with your brochures on hot tubs, and negotiating for beginners.
I don't try to squeeze blood from a stone, I shoot for fair and balance savings against time cost.
You should try it sometime, it allows one to keep their sanity -- or you could investigate and test and re-test, and read and re-read, and test some more.
Oooops you did that.
11 months. Remarkable.
Personally, I prefer to live and enjoy - there is enough stress but to add on to it for 11 months.
How long does it take you to buy a car or a house, or heck even a pair of shoes. |
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| 150 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 1st, 2003, 7:11am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lori |
Hey Steve,
Just to let you know, the only other people I know who get excited when it snows are the Automotive Refinish guys!!! My boss is in such a good mood when it snows!!!
I make him come get me and take me to work! Then if he leaves early, I get to leave early!!!
See ya!!! |
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| 152 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 1st, 2003, 1:22am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
Hi, auto. It looks like it's going to be a Catalina El Cortez.
My second choice was the Caldera Geneva Utopia, which we found in our wet-testing to be far superior to the Beachcomber we checked out but a bit over our stringent budget. We would have maybe bitten for the Martinique or the Tahitian, but were not able to wet-test either one.
Good to see you posting again, and hope you and Sue are still doing well in Florida. |
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| 154 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 1st, 2003, 12:15am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
And you are entitled to it LL.
> "Currently I don't have a spa"
Makes me wonder why your signature on the side states "it's better wetter" and the name you chose is "lounge lover". Ummmmmmmmm
Then again, I'm sure you're just assuming these things anyway, right? ...
And for the record... IT'S CANDY APPLE RED!! (just leave my wagon out of this OK?  )
Steve |
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| 155 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Oct 1st, 2003, 12:02am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
Steve, I have been civil and IMO kind and patient with you, much like I am with children. You earlier accused me of being defensive about Catalina spas. It is you who is defensive about Beachcomber, just like a child defending the color of his little red wagon.
I do not think I am "bringing down the level of this forum", which is, to my understanding for prospective spa buyers and existing spa owners, not dealers with an extraordinary bias towards their brand of spas.
Currently I don't have a spa as I thought I made clear much earlier in this thread, so I can't sit in it and contemplate how to interact with the likes of people like you.
As Phil said, you are tarnishing the otherwise good reputation of Beachcomber and I think you should examine your mindset. Just my opinion.... |
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| 156 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 10:09pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
That's what hot tubs are all about Roger! 'Lil early for the white stuff but it's only us crazy hot tub owners that don't complain. (Too much anyway...)
As for you lounge lover, the time has come for me to be blunt. You're bringing down the good nature of this forum. We applaud you on terrific negotiating skills and we all very impressed I'm sure.
Hot tubs are for relaxing and it sounds like you need to go sit in yours for a while and bask in your extraordinary skills and supremacy.
Steve |
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| 157 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 8:06pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
The time has come for me to be blunt.
I can't imagine why Jaw has such a proclivity for intruding in subjects he knows little about, but I think it's time for me to say that jaws are best when they are closed. I will commend him for buying a Marquis Euphoria, because it is IMO a great non-lounger spa which I could buy for less than he paid for his because I know how to negotiate rather than just shoot my mouth off. |
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| 158 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 2:40pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Wisoki |
| Run away from that idiot as quickly as you can. I would go so far as to suggest that his water balance advice is just as imballenced as his "you didn't buy mine, so you are an a$$ hole" attitude. This guy should not be considered a rescource. Your Jacuzzi spa MAY (like all other spas) leak, however since you spa is supported by an abs base AND a wooden frame structure along with a tri fusion bonded shell, there is no "danger" whatsoever of breaking through. This guy is laughable. Enjoy your high quality tub and stick with your dealer for advice. |
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| 159 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 1:28pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
Well, that's it then. Time to sell my stock in Beachcomber. Phil is not going to buy one. And now that he has his new mission in life - attempting to ruin a company because someone said bite me (or words to that effect), I also guess old Phil has proven the old proverb wrong -- the one about words will never hurt me.
We need more people like Phil here, on our highways, and driving our kids to school.
Thanks Phil, you have made this a most enlightening experience.
So, I guess it's time to say nyah, nyah to you, I await your educmacated gummimment seated response.
Get a life huh? |
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| 160 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 12:33pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by E.A.S.A._guy |
Just another observation.
Any time there is a debate about TP vs. FF it always gets down low and dirty. Such passion over something relatively minor in the spa purchase decision making process. |
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| 161 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 12:23pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lori |
The funniest part of this whole thread is . . .
wait for it . . .
wait for it . . .
The original author has yet to post on this thread again. He has stated in another post that he has already bought a tub! He didn't even mention whether it was FF or TP!
I guess he got the hint!
Just an observation! |
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| 162 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 12:19pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
Just thought it was time to chime in and say it sure is nice to see that we are having a wonderful lovefest on this thread.
And a certain fruit has not made a single entry.
You know what?
If your decision comes down to whether or not a tub is FF or TP or anything else, you have much more serious problems. And they cannot be solved here.
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| 164 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 30th, 2003, 1:06am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
Little touchy for no reason there LL. Here's my quote: "Even if you DO feel those glitzy features are perfect for you, all that means is IT IS!" NOTICE THE "DO" IS CAPITALIZED? Didn't think so.
I was trying to be nice but was wasted I see. Much like this post as well... a waste of time on some...
Not typing clearly enough isn't your problem LL... more of your poor attitude than anything. Maybe slow down next time you answer a post. Makes me wonder if you're really happy with your decision since you seem very defensive with it.
See what happens when one tries to be nice.... SHEEEESH
Steve |
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| 165 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 10:43pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
Steve, I guess I did not type clearly enough. I am NOT getting any glitzy options. The only options I've chosen are the ozonator and the turbo blower. I see the former as possibly worthwhile, the latter as a necessity. I have wet tested spas with and without blowers and prefer to have one. I also prefer spas with leg jets in the lounger and I did not see any on the Beachcombers.
As you all say, wet test, wet test, wet test. I've been doing it for 11 months and think I've finally found the right spa for us. And I know it's not the right spa for everyone--never said it was.
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| 166 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 9:06pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
Not so much putting it down LL, but rather pointing out some questionable features that I know past customers have always had issues with. We learn a great deal when consumers make their second purchase of a spa and know what they would look for different the second time 'round. Small foot wells have always been a major issue.
I did look at a number of models this past weekend at our fall Home Show. Ohhhh they're glitzy alright!
Features like the misters I can't see working very well in our climate. Understand that this is still a very young industry and we continue to learn from our mistakes and strive for improvement. It's hard to believe, but even Beachcomber isn't perfect. I guess I should have told you to sit down first eh?
Sounds like you're getting a great deal LL and I personally wish you the best with your new hot tub. Even if you DO feel those glitzy features are perfect for you, all that means is IT IS! There's no wrong answer here but rest assured your next purchase will based on past experiences and in turn will be even better.
Steve |
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| 167 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 8:31pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
Steve, I am surprised that you would put down Catalina Spas. Have you seen the CL 600 or the El Cortez? No charge for a visit to their web site. As far as the glitz factor, all of it is among a list of options that I will not get.
The basic 8' Catalina El Cortez with an ozonator and turbo blower, geyser and whirlpool jets, and 36 LARGE individually adjustable water jets, which IMO compares favorably with Beachcomber's best model, sells here delivered and installed for about $6000 (American). This includes steps, chemicals, cover and a hydraulic cover lifter. |
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| 168 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 5:02pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lori |
Tsk, tsk, tsk!
Aren't you guys tired yet?
Some very good points, for both sides!
Can we call it a draw?
Barryv, you aren't going to get a definitive answer! Don't let this be the deal maker or breaker! The comfort of sitting in one wet and dealer comfort, that should be the true tests! If it comes down to two great spas (which mine did) then use FF vs. TP, consider bells and whistles, etc. I chose a FF Hot Spring Vanguard but was just as impressed with LA Spas Fiji model. The Hot Spring was FF. Period. The LA Fiji gave me the option of FF vs TP and the dealer offered me the FF, at no extra charge, to try and sweeten the deal. I would have gotten FF, no matter which I chose. Wasn't the deal breaker!
Just my opinion, nothing more.
Let your conscience be your guide! (In other words, ask your wife, significant other, or just use your gut instinct!) |
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| 169 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 2:08pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
Stupid me, I suspect they say this because it is cheaper to go the TP route than the FF route. If FF was REALLY not good why would they offer it?
FF is quieter, it helps the pumps maintain rigidity at startup and stop, it adds strength to the structure.
This is simple (my simple mind) logic.
If (not when, but if) your FF tub leaks you will pay more for a repair, how much is anyones guess. But the odds are that a TP tub will leak first. |
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| 171 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / the Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 12:04pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by RDF |
| V Man, trying to hard? It sounds like an opinion and good information to me.. By the way, my FF tub rises a couple degrees when the pumps are running too, amazing, huh! |
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| 172 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 11:10am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
LL and others, as polititicians you'd be super. Take words and totally change meaning.
1. No one said that foam was THERE specifically for the PURPOSE of keeping piping rigid NOR for the SPECIFIC purpose of strengthing SHELLS.
These are added, or is the term residual? benefits.
But not part of the design.
Please do continue to believe the scare tactic of FF = leak fixing problems.
1. FF does require more work to fix a leak.
2. FF tend to leak less.
Now please do make up more and when you run for CA governor, you get my vote. |
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| 173 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 10:55am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
Thanks Phil for your reply. Sorry for the mis-quote. 
I can't speak for every FF manufacturer but we do use an open celled foam within the spa that utilizes the benefits of insulation philosophies, while adapting values of the insulation properties of air. I DON’T believe however, that 2 feet of air acting as a “sealed” barrier in a product where this cannot be done, makes good engineering sense.
My main issue in addition to this is using heat transfer from the pumps that are only discharging heat for small periods of time. If the cavity itself was in fact a fully closed unit, this application could have merit. In your opinion Phil, are these cabinets in TP designs fully closed?
You mentioned LL that Catalina is less expensive than Beachcomber. We recently have had Catalina enter our market here and I can tell that they are considerably more money than Beachcomber here in Canada. The exchange must a play a factor I'm sure. These are very "splashy" tubs with bells and whistles galore that really don't compete with our clientele. There's a market I'm sure but that said, the market is diminishing rapidly for the type of hype this company is relying on IMO.
To do a real comparison, the type of molds Catalina is using are very outdated and are molds we used 15 years ago. They have very small foot wells and rely heavily on the "bullet type" jets to improve their jet count. The have built in pillows which are a real flaw and a dome in the small foot wells for foot massagers decreasing the already limited space within it.
Seating is very personal preference and I don't see much in the way of contouring and variety. We have 38" deep spas but almost every one of our spas offer at least 1 deep bucket seat for very tall people. Most of ours have multiple deep seats as they are primarily winter tubs used more frequently in sub zero temperatures. I have never had an issue of not being able to supply a spa that offers very tall people the type of depth they require while still having proper seating for the wife and children. Not many families can comfortably sit in a 42" spa with all deep seating.
As for the outside measurements, I will put our 89 X 89" spas up against most 8 foot square spas for interior seating comfort and room. Seating more than 8 people in a spa at any given time isn't really an issue as most families are 4-5 people 98% of the time.
The reason we haven't become the ONLY manufacturer is because everyone is different and finds certain benefits from different products. It doesn't make one better in general, but better for that family. I think that's great and we all strive to improve our products because of it.
Great thread all and I'm sure this type of information you are all supplying will help many.
Steve |
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| 174 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 9:52am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
Steve, I believe that Beachcomber is one of several quality tub manufacturers. If they made 93" X 93" X 40-42" tubs and offered them for sale at a price comparable to the Catalina line, I'd be interested in spite of the insulation method. By the way, Catalina offers FF as a no-increase-in-cost option.
Again, why does Master Spas say that based on their testing TP is more efficient? They offer either method. |
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| 175 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 29th, 2003, 1:36am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Steve |
As we know that none of us will EVER solve this ongoing debate over FF/TP, it's always interesting to see these outlandish claims of superiority. Sad really.
Phil Miller claims that TP is by far more efficient, yet as always, I see many strong feelings with no real data to back up anything. Same 'ol BS... Though as most of you know, I'm a Beachcomber (FF) dealer and strongly support the design. At the same time, I don't totally dismiss the TP concept except to say that it is 100% impossible to "seal" or "thermally close" a hot tub. Say what you will, but it isn't possible. Given that, a partially insulated tub (TP), will always allow cooler, ambient temperatures to reach the cavity of the vessel. No one here can argue those points. If you chose to, please include real research showing me different and proving that TP closed spas can do so. I aways enjoy a debate based on knowledge, truth and fact.
We also know that FF spas can be more difficult to repair IF a leak ever happens. This in NO WAY should be a deciding factor in your purchase as Roger so eloquently put it!
If you discount all FF spas, it will be a true injustice as many quality spas are built this way. If enough people said they didn't like Ford, would you change your decision to buy an Explorer or other Ford product?
Opinions are nothing more than that and if you throw up your arms in defeat by the many scare tactics out there, you haven't done the work needed to make a good buying decision. Plain & simple!
If there are some that still believe that FF is there to strictly support the plumbing and structure, I say respectfully... GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE PEOPLE! The bi-product of FF spas is a quieter operation with far less chance of leaks due to less plumbing vibration. Do you really think that almost 4000 lbs of water can be supported properly by pure foam? Tell me that you don't really believe this. Sheesh.... Some bad information that hasn't been deleted from your memory banks is all.
As many here have already stated, don't make the same mistake that some are making here. Your buying decision MUST be based on far more than FF/TP and if your ability to make this purchase is limited to just that, I feel very sorry for you. Both have great manufacturers that offer quality products enjoyed by 10's of thousands of people all over the world!
Will this debate ever be solved..... will this be the last we hear of this..... I doubt it but rest assured that both sides will always have strong feelings and freely offer up unsupported claims of superiority! Its always been that way!
Steve |
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| 176 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 28th, 2003, 10:01pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
| Well, I am 6' 6" tall and need a deep (40 - 42") spa. This narrows the field considerably also. As of now it looks like I'll be going for a Catalina which has everything I want and need. |
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| 177 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 27th, 2003, 9:15pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lounge Lover |
Based upon what I've read above from the experts, I'm even more sure that I'll buy a Thermo Pane spa now.
Thanks to you all, especially the Master Spas company who has nothing to gain by saying that TP is more efficient.
By the way, if a spa needs full foam to hold the plumbing together, check your premise. |
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| 178 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 27th, 2003, 11:08am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by wmccall |
on Sep 26th, 2003, 6:15pm, Roger wrote:
A TP designed tub will loose more heat than a FF It's common sence less insulation more heat loss!!!! Simple. ( That last statement you TP'ers needed to hear) |
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You make that statement and then say let it die?
And that is because you say so? Thats the debate equivalent of "Because mom said so" . If I put 4 feet thick insulation in my attic and called it partial, and then put in 5 feet, which filled up the attic and called it full, then obviously full is better right?
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| 179 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 26th, 2003, 3:00pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Lori |
on Sep 26th, 2003, 2:29pm, Venture Man wrote:
I chose Thermal Pane for my spa's insulation based on my research. So far, the TP theory has been living up to it's name. When I'm running my jets, my spa acually heats up. The outside air is 30-40 degrees cooler than the water when I use the spa in the evenings, yet the water temperature will rise a degree or two. I have to attibute this to the TP theory.
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I'm not saying either is better! I have a FF spa, though, and my water temperature will rise a degree or two when I'm running my jets, also.
That isn't only a TP feature.
Just wanted to state that!
I say it is personal preference!!! I would have gone with TP, but my husband insisted on FF. Not a deal breaker for me! I'm happy I have a spa to enjoy!!!
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| 180 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 26th, 2003, 1:31am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Drifter |
I have the master 850 and am loving it! I too had the same question. I emailed Master and here is what they said.
"It is our opinion (through testing) that the arctic master insulation is the most efficient and best route to go. You get the best of both worlds: Superior insulation through a trapped warm air pocket between the foam on the plumbing and the foam wall section in the frame as well as access to plumbing if there should ever be a need to. We utilize the heat put off by the equipment in this system by trapping the warm air from the motors in the dead air space. Fully foamed spas must have a direct vent for this air or they will overheat the unit. Most full foam spas also utilize the foam as support for their shell. We don't need foam supporting our spas because we use the highest grade fiberglass and resins available. Not all spa shells are built this way."
They also added that the full foam was a little more quiet. So based upon that I ordered the full foam spa. Shortly after doing so I began to regret that I did. Imagine my surprise when my spa showed up and it was artic blanket! Dealer Error in my favor! I'm glad I got the blanket because noise is definitely not an issue! Get the artic blanket I say!
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| 181 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 25th, 2003, 2:25pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
In any predominantly warm climate, I'd not be too worried one way or the other - strictly from the heating perspective.
I think they'd put new foam in.
Yes they do cost more to fix, but they tend to leak less as there is no movement from the pipes or fittings that might cause leaks.
The venting is (I think) what I meant. If both are vented to the outside, how can a thermopane tub help heat the tub - the heat is vented outside.
On a FF tub it is vented out as it does not help.
On the other hand, my FF tub has air valves and the warm component cabinet air is used, this keeps the tub at the prescribed temp longer. |
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| 182 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 25th, 2003, 1:38pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by kkler |
Depends how well it is insulated. I've called all the
repair area's in Dallas and all said it would cost
more to repair a FF then one without.What do they
repair the foam with after cutting it out?
As far as the poat about the pumps being vented outside
mostly all motors have the motors vented from the motor
itself. Using the motor to heat the inside of the cabinet
what there talking about is the outside of the motor
release heat to the cabinet like a heatsink. I looked
at the Hot Spings and there motors are vented to the
outside and their FF, but the heat from the motor still
is released to to the cabinet same as the coleman which
isn't FF. |
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| 183 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 25th, 2003, 11:54am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
I placed the 3 items to offer some rationale for believing that FF is better. I could simply have said anyone who does not buy FF is an idiot - along the lines of what LL 'did not say'
I believe the 3 things I noted actually do make FF better, if you or anyone else disagrees that's ok by me.
I only fight with my kids and my wife, so you have nothing to worry about.
My point was that an opinion without anything behind it is totally worthless, an opinion with something behind it may also be worthless but it at least gives the reader things to think about.
If FF did not do a better job of maintaining temps, I can't see why it would even be offered - it costs more than thermo pane so why not save some $$.
I have tried both and to my DEAF ears (I wear hearing aids) FF is absolutely quieter.
FF does strengthen plumbing (as the foam prevents movement of the pipes from the sudden on/off and other cycling that non-FF does not offer. It stands to reason that if the pipes don't move the seals and other things will last longer.
FF offers additional support to the structure as it is a rigid product.
Now, this is not meant to say the thermopane is not good, it is simply my opinion that if the only risk is leaks then FF is the overall better choice - because leaks are covered for a long time by all the major OEMS.
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| 184 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 25th, 2003, 11:22am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by wmccall |
on Sep 25th, 2003, 9:23am, jaw wrote:Hey LL,
Maybe you can offer some wisdom behind the bold statement, or is this just something you have heard?
1. Full Foam maintain temps better.
2. FF is quieter
3. FF helps strengthen plumbing and offers additional rigidity to the entire tub.
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Perhaps he could say the same thing to you. (not picking a fight here, just curious.) Can you back up #1, what is the difference between 6" of foam or 6' of foam, how much is getting ridiculous?
I unlugged my spa one cool night and the water was still very warm the next day, my conclusion, I have enough insulation.
As far as #2 my spa is quiet enough for me, haven't heard a full foam one, will be worth noting sometime.
My cabinet does have minor vents to cool the pumps and the temps in the cabinet are sitll warm leading me to think the air going to the airline will be warmer than a full foam tub. How much , I don't know.
Your number 3 seems to make some sense, unless small leaks puddle up and cause the foam to get heavy. I don't know, haven't been inside enough old spas to know.
I guess my feeling when I bought and now is too much foam may not be any better than just enough. For now, I think I have enough.
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| 185 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 25th, 2003, 9:23am |
| Started by Barryv | Post by jaw |
Hey LL,
Maybe you can offer some wisdom behind the bold statement, or is this just something you have heard?
1. Full Foam maintain temps better.
2. FF is quieter
3. FF helps strengthen plumbing and offers additional rigidity to the entire tub.
Tubs that are not FF actually often have equipment bays venting outside - or get cold air from the outside to help cool the equipment or allow some of the hot air out - how does this help keep a tub warm?
Having an opinion is wonderful, puking out words with no background or anything else is just thingy. |
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| 187 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / arctic Foam or Full Foam |
on: Sep 24th, 2003, 8:36pm |
| Started by Barryv | Post by Barryv |
Well guys- Have decided on the Master 850-- a lot of $$ but it seems worth it. got the Stero and the Hyradulic lifer and steps-- still deciding on Fiber optics...
One thing to decide in additiion. Full FOam or arctic insulation--Master offers both-- Master people tell me not much difference in terms of heat efficiency and arctic makes it easier to get to.. Dealer is pretty neutral-- looking for what to do... |
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| 188 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Master LSX Price |
on: Sep 7th, 2003, 9:49pm |
| Started by hberg | Post by hberg |
I am now looking into a Master spa LSX, but I am being quoted a price of $8,600.00 plus tax, which puts me over $9,100.00. I think that is high, for what I have seen on this forum. I live in Northern California. Not sure what areas other people live, to get a price so much cheaper. What happens if you order one from outside the area where you live, as far as the warranty goes ?
I was also looking into the arctic kodiak, but cannot wet test, nor see one before we buy, as no one has one in the area where I live. We do not want to buy a tub we cannot wet test. |
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| 189 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / :DRe: arctic vs. Master Spas |
on: Sep 1st, 2003, 10:02am |
| Started by boltonma | Post by rrdstr |
I have had a Kodiak - Signature for nearly two years and just love it. The power is more than sufficient. No complaints or maintenance at all. I can't say that I noticed much of a difference in my electrical bills either, and I live in Canada. $50 per month in electricity in Arizona
As of this past Saturday, I upgraded to the Legend SE model mainly for the additional jets, the upgraded Peak ozone and the fibreglass bottom (very nice feature). For anyone looking for a spa, the arctic is in the upper tier of those out there. |
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| 190 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic spas - Is this a good deal or not? |
on: Jul 25th, 2003, 9:40pm |
| Started by Jeff Rudolph | Post by wmccall |
| Nice looking spa, looks like a great seating arrangement. The barrier free design of that tub will make moving from one seat to another real easy. Our tub also has the microban textured surface. We have had our tub (Dynasty) just long enough to say that is a worthwhile feature. Our tub also has the aroma therapy feature (a worthless feature I think) That one seat with the armrest and wrist jets looks nice. This might be a nice tub for people who don't want a lounger. |
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| 191 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Spas |
on: Jul 20th, 2003, 8:38pm |
| Started by jon Peters | Post by DougC |
Autoplay,
I will be taking delivery of a Hot Springs when I return form vacation on August 1. I know a couple of people who have HS and they have not known much of a change, same with Sundance and Sweetwater.
I also have a friend who has a Baja and their bills went up $35-$45 a month. When I first spoke with them I was turned off by those bills, then found that Baja spas do tend to run a little more expensive (found that info via boards like this and epinions).
Like Jon, I saw the arctic and the girl/guy was excited about his spas and I liked that. They were the 1st copmany I saw and I didn't know anything about what I was looking for. The lady I met on my 1st visit said about $40 a month but she didn't have one so she couldn't tell me for sure. On my second I spoke with the department manager and he said he has one in his back yard, even offered to let me come and wet test it there, and siad that his bills only went up $50 to $55 a month. That is how I got the $50 figure.
Being in AZ I really wouldn't expect a spa to add that much. Our price is about .09 and that goes down to .06 in "off peak" hours.
Autoplay, they may be about the same, I am only going by what I have heard from spa owners and some comments from the boards, but mostly from my interaction with the dealer and a few friends who have spas. This guy may have a couple of kids or have his friends over a lot, I don't know. That is just what he said about his arctic.
Also, following up on Steve's question, what is to ggod to be true?
Thanks,
Doug
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| 192 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Spas |
on: Jul 20th, 2003, 1:50pm |
| Started by jon Peters | Post by Steve |
Can you elaborate on what's too good to be true?
Have you sat in one? Do you live in a cold climate? How long has your dealer carried these? Have you wet tested one? Do you know anyone that has one?
Steve
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| 193 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Spas |
on: Jul 20th, 2003, 7:00am |
| Started by jon Peters | Post by autoplay |
"ONLY" 50 a month? LOLOLOL. I was under the impression that Artic and thermo-pane spas were close to the same as far as energy efficency compared to full foam. My power bill for my spa at the moment is about 20 dollars a month. I expect that to go up a little in the winter-time when the heater is running.
Doug,is the spa you purchased closed or open celled full foam? (your spa might very well be both,done in layers) |
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| 194 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic Spas |
on: Jul 19th, 2003, 10:04pm |
| Started by jon Peters | Post by DougC |
I was looking at arctic as the dealer was about 2 miles away. I asked him the all important question of utility bills and he said they weren't high, only added $50 a month. I have a few friends who have spas and none of their bills are over $25 a month here in Arizona.
Once I heard that, I decided they weren't for me.
Good luck,
Doug |
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| 195 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Insulation Questions? |
on: Jul 15th, 2003, 1:30pm |
| Started by dd | Post by jaw |
I echo much of what autoplay has said. I would add -- just for arguments sake, Marquis (not because I have -- or will next week, one), because they do something I have not seen others do. That is they not only full foam the tub, but they then thermo wrap it too. Finally they use a plastic/metal reinforced base.
Others may be doing the same, and not touting it, but Marquis touts it.
I suspect most any of the top tier spas will suit you well in the arctic climate -- regardless of where they are actually made, but, assuming some are made specifically for the cold would be a good place to start too.
Good luck. |
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| 196 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic vs. Master Spas |
on: Jun 19th, 2003, 4:28pm |
| Started by boltonma | Post by boltonma |
Johnny:
What model/level of the Kodiak do you have? We are looking at the Signature and Legend models. We are not sure that the Signature model is powerful enough. That is, are the jets powerfull enough especially if you want to run them in all locations of the spa at once? Also, do you have an ozone system? If so, do you like it? If not, how often do you add chemicals?
Thanks,
Chris |
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| 197 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: arctic vs. Master Spas |
on: Jun 17th, 2003, 10:09pm |
| Started by boltonma | Post by starchild |
I would have to agree with the Roger. I dont know much about the arctic spa's. But from what I have read and wet tested myself Master Spa is one of the better therapy spa's. I found their shells to be well made and they use good pumps and filtration looked good too. My wife and I have considered the lsx also. My wife liked it more than I did, I didnt really care for the xtreme seat. The wirlpool jets in that seat seemed to punch me in the stomach was very uncomfortable. The hip jets are ok. I like the master spa neck jets with reverse mold.
We are looking to try a Artesian spa. They are supposed to be a major contender with Master Spa for therapy. Once we are able to try one we can make a decision. I think if we go with Master we will be looking at the LS700, which did not have as nice a lounger as the LSX. I think with a Artesian we may be able to get everything we want with no compromise in seating etc, will have to see if the jets are as nice. These two spa's are nice since they have adequate pumps to each seat.
Good luck let us know how you do.
Corey |
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| 198 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / arctic vs. Master Spas |
on: Jun 17th, 2003, 6:58pm |
| Started by boltonma | Post by boltonma |
We have been looking for spas for a while now and have narrowed the search to 2, arctic Kodiak and the Master Spas LSX. Positives for arctic are the look of the cabinet, energy efficientcy, dealer support, base, lights, comfort and size. Negatives are maintenance on cabinet, less jets and pumps, ozonator, price ($8,000), not alot of people own one. Positives for LSX are: number of pumps and jets, types of seats, ozonator. Negatives are: price ($8,800), capacity, look of cabinet and noise.
We are very perplexed. We are doing a wet test for both again. Can anyone help us out with any information especially on arctic spas in general and with the LSX model for Master. |
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| 199 |
General / Hot Tub Forum / Re: Master Spa Option of Full Foam or Artic Foam? |
on: May 13th, 2003, 8:11pm |
| Started by starchild | Post by Drifter |
I was considering both options myself and emailed the company and this was their response.......
"Thanks for the interest in the 850 Legend Series Spa. If you are looking for the ultimate relaxation machine with some great features, this is it. We actually do offer our spas both with the full foam insulation or our arctic master insulation. It is our opinion (through testing) that the arctic master insulation is the most efficient and best route to go. You get the best of both worlds: Superior insulation through a trapped warm air pocket between the foam on the plumbing and the foam wall section in the frame as well as access to plumbing if there should ever be a need to. We utilize the heat put off by the equipment in this system by trapping the warm air from the motors in the dead air space. Fully foamed spas must have a direct vent for this air or they will overheat the unit. Most full foam spas also utilize the foam as support for their shell. We don't need foam supporting our spas because we use the highest grade fiberglass and resins available. Not all spa shells are built this way."
Hope this helps!
PS. one other consideration...which is quieter?
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